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View Full Version : why no love for native 24p playback?



Nandroltom
02-03-2011, 01:42 PM
Hi,

I was wondering, why Philips is so reluctant to support real 24p playback like all other brands do now. I mean, sure, there is this motion compensation technique they want to sell as an outstanding feature. But what about us people who don't like the soap opera effect and want to watch their bluray is it is intended to be watched: true 24 pictures / second and not this terrible, terrible 2:3 pulldown that strains the eye?
Is there a valid vechnical reason for that or is this just marketing?
Oh, I own a 5605H by the way.

petasis
02-03-2011, 05:13 PM
I think that my 9000 series TV (I have an 9705) does accept 24Hz without a problem. The look is comparable to other brands in 24p, so I assume there is no 3:2 pull down involved... (But I prefer the more real-life look of motion compensation, and not so much the cinema look of only 24 frames per second and the judder it makes...)

Alicia
02-03-2011, 06:03 PM
My tv supports 1080p24 :) , but what I'm missing is support for 23.976Hz.
Reason: lots of media files have a framerate of 23.976 fps that are now played at some other framerate causing judder.

Nandroltom
02-03-2011, 06:56 PM
@petasis:
do the following to test if your TV supports native 24p: get a media player that is capable of 1080p24 and 1080p60. Mine is a WD TV live. Select each setting in the media player and watch the same movie scene. Ideally someone else sets up the player for you and you repeat watching multiple times, so you cannot cheat yourself. If you do notice a visual difference, your TV plays 24p. I know mine doesn't because I notice no visual difference with my Philips, but do notice the vast improvement on the Sharp LCD of my friend.
Also: the support hotline says so, so it must be right. ;)
@alicia
Are you sure that the reason of this isn't the media player?

Philips
02-04-2011, 10:26 AM
Philips is offering the experience setting ‘Cinema’ for this purpose.
Then there is no motion conversion and the original frame judder is maintained.

Toengel
02-04-2011, 10:32 AM
Hi,

such information should be integrated in the manual AND the integrated help of the TVs...

Toengel@Alex

Nandroltom
02-04-2011, 11:42 AM
So, when I select the "Cinema" smart picture mode preset, the TV changes its usual 2:3 pulldown to a say 4:4 or 5:5 pulldown? I always thought the presets were just presets and do not change anything else?
- With the exception of the "game" preset, which allows the PC mode.

Toengel
02-04-2011, 11:46 AM
Hi,

this support my request for a detailed description of the presets in the manual and integrated help/manual embedded in the TV.

The integrated manual can easily be updated and the standard manual PDF too...

Toengel@Alex

kyuss
02-04-2011, 04:37 PM
Greetings!

I have connected my Philips (32pfl5405) to the pc via Ati HD3200. I have set the resolution to profile 1080p@24 (1920x1080@24Hz), and I have set the tv smart picture profile to Cinema, and still in the movies I experience judgering. Afcourse, the movie has 23,976fps. So what to do? Does Philips have at all 24p move playback capability that is actually working on htpc?!

Nandroltom
02-04-2011, 05:15 PM
Philips is offering the experience setting ‘Cinema’ for this purpose.
Then there is no motion conversion and the original frame judder is maintained.
Sorry, that's incorrect. I just tested it. The "Cinema" setting is not different from the other presets. Since I have disabled natural motion in every setting, there is no visible difference. The 2:3 pulldown judder is still there.
So, at least the phone support was right in their statement that Philips only does 2:3 pulldown :(

kyuss
02-06-2011, 12:48 AM
My tv supports 1080p24 :) , but what I'm missing is support for 23.976Hz.
Reason: lots of media files have a framerate of 23.976 fps that are now played at some other framerate causing judder.

23.976 Hz is actually 24 Hz. The number is simply rounded up.

@Nandroltom

You were talking that you have seen the difference between 24Hz and 60Hz playback on your friends tv. Can you tell me which one looked better?

Nandroltom
02-06-2011, 10:00 AM
23.976 Hz is actually 24 Hz. The number is simply rounded up.
No, there are actually some blurays encoded in 24Hz. However, I don't know what the players make out of this. The WD TV used to have different settings, 23.976 and 24, but they eliminated the 23.976 setting in the latest firmware versions.


You were talking that you have seen the difference between 24Hz and 60Hz playback on your friends tv. Can you tell me which one looked better?
Well, the 24p setting, of course.

kyuss
02-06-2011, 02:17 PM
Didn't knew that about 24Hz.

About the difference... Did you looked at the fast scenes (i.e. when camera pans really quick)? Because i have read that in those scenes 60Hz and 3:2 pulldown actually does look better or should i say smoother.

Nandroltom
02-06-2011, 03:58 PM
The visual perception is viewer dependent. This statement however seems rather illogical. But again, if someone says so, I won't argue. It's their perception.

kyuss
02-06-2011, 05:02 PM
It's not that illogical if you think about it for a moment. 24 pictures in second are not enough to cover all the aspects of moving object. Even movie directors try to make movements as slowly as possible. Now, 48 Hz is completely different thing. 48Hz and 2:2 pulldown doesn't affect that way the picture as 3:2 pulldown, and even it's the same method (duplicating the frames), 48Hz is closer to the human eye as the moving picture then 24Hz. Too bad our Philips TVs don't support 48Hz or 72, 96 or even 120 Hz refresh rates and the ability to generate matching pulldowns.

ali54
02-06-2011, 06:06 PM
It's not that illogical if you think about it for a moment. 24 pictures in second are not enough to cover all the aspects of moving object. Even movie directors try to make movements as slowly as possible. Now, 48 Hz is completely different thing. 48Hz and 2:2 pulldown doesn't affect that way the picture as 3:2 pulldown, and even it's the same method (duplicating the frames), 48Hz is closer to the human eye as the moving picture then 24Hz. Too bad our Philips TVs don't support 48Hz or 72, 96 or even 120 Hz refresh rates and the ability to generate matching pulldowns.

so from what you saying the philips tv only plays back at 24 and 60 hz im wondering thats why im seen motion judder there is a scen in casino royale where i can see this realy bad

kyuss
02-06-2011, 06:47 PM
My Philips can support 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60HZ refresh rate (and 100Hz, but that comes from Pixel Plus processing). I just don't know what's the efficiency of 24p ability, now that Nandroltom said he saw the difference between 24p on Philips and 24p on Sharp.

Funny you should mention Casino Royale. That scene you're talking about is probably the same scene that is described in this column which explains 24p phenomenon: http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

ali54
02-06-2011, 07:13 PM
My Philips can support 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60HZ refresh rate (and 100Hz, but that comes from Pixel Plus processing). I just don't know what's the efficiency of 24p ability, now that Nandroltom said he saw the difference between 24p on Philips and 24p on Sharp.

Funny you should mention Casino Royale. That scene you're talking about is probably the same scene that is described in this column which explains 24p phenomenon: http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

sorry wich philips tv do you own and yes that is the same part off the movie i see the judder have you seen this on your tv im just trying to find out if my tv needs repering

kyuss
02-06-2011, 10:39 PM
I have Philips 32pfl5405/12. Judder has nothing to do with the tv being broke. Judder is normal. Too bad our tvs can't decrease it.

ali54
02-06-2011, 11:11 PM
I have Philips 32pfl5405/12. Judder has nothing to do with the tv being broke. Judder is normal. Too bad our tvs can't decrease it.

yes i think you right becuse i just played the same movies on our 3 year old samsung and the judder was there but not bad as the philips.do you think i can improve this judders by changing my bluray player or it wont make any diffrence

kyuss
02-07-2011, 12:22 AM
yes i think you right becuse i just played the same movies on our 3 year old samsung and the judder was there but not bad as the philips.do you think i can improve this judders by changing my bluray player or it wont make any diffrence

are you playing original blu ray dvd's or bad quality downloaded rips?

I can't really answer your question. The best way would probably be if you could try out other media players (i.e. ps3, wdtv, mede8er and so on...) on your tv and see how do they behave. I don't have any experience with those players, only with pc atached on the tv.

ali54
02-07-2011, 01:31 AM
are you playing original blu ray dvd's or bad quality downloaded rips?

I can't really answer your question. The best way would probably be if you could try out other media players (i.e. ps3, wdtv, mede8er and so on...) on your tv and see how do they behave. I don't have any experience with those players, only with pc atached on the tv.

im useing ps3 and panasoinc bluray player and original discs

Nandroltom
02-09-2011, 10:13 AM
My Philips can support 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60HZ refresh rate (and 100Hz, but that comes from Pixel Plus processing). I just don't know what's the efficiency of 24p ability, now that Nandroltom said he saw the difference between 24p on Philips and 24p on Sharp.
That's not really what I said. My statement was:
Sharp 24p not eqal to Sharp 60p
Philips 24p equal to Philips 60p
You should always spot a difference when comparing different TV sets. :)


Funny you should mention Casino Royale. That scene you're talking about is probably the same scene that is described in this column which explains 24p phenomenon: http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
In my opinion and in the opinion of many commenters, the author has no idea what he is talking about.
Basically it comes to this: Older technique was better, because it BLURRED the image way more!
Remember the old Super 8 films? Although there were very few pictures / second taken, no one complained about motion "judder" because when the camera was moved, everything dissolved into a blurry mess.
The same can be said about old LCD tvs that simply were not fast enough to display sharp single images that differed much from the previous picture. Definitively not something I am missing.
However, this guy can be helped: Stop buying blurays. Buy DVDs and use a Scart Cable. The resulting picture should be blurry enough to compensate for the motion judder.

One more thing about the 24p support. What I don't understand is that we now have the ultimate medium for films (bluray) with nearly unlimited capacity and yet there is not a single film disc with more than 24 (or maybe 25) pictures per second. If motion compensation is so great, why isn't it included on the film's disc in the first place? Why do the TV manufacturers think that they can make the picture of "the perfect HD experience" better? And why is there a 24p standard when the manufacurers think: "24p? Ah, screw that, we don't support that. We do motion compensation, that look way better than the original" ?

kyuss
02-12-2011, 11:36 AM
Yes, I see what you mean, and now I understand that this column isn't elaborated good enough. I don't know what is the reason why movie companies don't make movies with 60 pictures in second. Maybe the reason lies in the fact that they would need to buy new equipment.

In the meanwhile the best solution for the judder that i have found lies in movie player software. Afcourse you would need to play the movies from your pc connected to the tv. The name of the software is Splash Pro player and it is the best player that i have ever seen (and i saw alot of players). The thing is that it has Motion2 ability. And this is the ability that today probably every 100Hz tv has (i.e. Philips HD NAtural Motion). Software interpolates the frames between the frames. You don't get completely judder free movie, but around 95% of the movie which is good enough. And the other 5% judder is alot smoother and bareable. Some people don't like the "soap" look but that opinion is subjective. I think that it looks much better than soaps and I can't watch the movie without it. To me this is better than 24p playback, because even if you get smooth playback without "soap look" via 24p you are watching 24 pictures in second. Using the frame interpolation you get 60 pictures per seconds which is much less tireing for the eye.