PDA

View Full Version : philips 46pfl9705 worst image quality ever



johngialips
06-11-2011, 02:02 PM
i upload two videos,one with backlight scan to best picture and another with backlight scan off.
please tell me if you have experience the same problem with me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAAA9cPvUSI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef4uPl-K5aI

petasis
06-11-2011, 03:13 PM
Yes, this is a known problem of the local dimming implementation of Philips. It makes everything below 20 IRE black.

(You can try the settings from here: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1291289229
They are wrong regarding gamma, but they try to use a bright gamma so as to show more shadow detail. I don't like these settings, but perhaps you will like them...)

Freddy
06-11-2011, 03:27 PM
Well... I suppose with "worst image quality ever" you mean the first clip, the one with Dynamic Backlight at Best Picture, is far too dark, as far as these videos are accurate representations of how it looks in reality.

If that's what you mean, I have a few suggestions, to begin with:

- raise Contrast by about 8 (76 in my case)
- Brightness = 51

- Dynamic Backlight = Standard
- Perfect Contrast = Off
- Gamma = 2

How are your current Picture settings?...

johngialips
06-11-2011, 04:25 PM
Yes, this is a known problem of the local dimming implementation of Philips. It makes everything below 20 IRE black.

(You can try the settings from here: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1291289229
They are wrong regarding gamma, but they try to use a bright gamma so as to show more shadow detail. I don't like these settings, but perhaps you will like them...)


no i dont like them :)
now i understand the problem and i find it really annoying

i took the video with cinema preset without change nothing.
if i change then in many cases its not too black but the <<Christmas tree>> effect is always here

JethroUK
06-12-2011, 08:23 AM
Mines (42PFL8404) far too dark - so are all Phlilips TV's too dark to see - should they all go back?

I posted this issues few days ago, and since this is 'a known issues' it would've been nice to be told that

Instead I got some bull about screen settings and had to 'find out' myself to switch Dynamic Backlight off

Even then the screen is still too dark so might try gamma up

JethroUK
06-12-2011, 08:45 AM
Yes, this is a known problem of the local dimming implementation of Philips. It makes everything below 20 IRE black.

(You can try the settings from here: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1291289229
They are wrong regarding gamma, but they try to use a bright gamma so as to show more shadow detail. I don't like these settings, but perhaps you will like them...)

For a 'known issue" ('everything below 20 IRE black. ') they dont mention it in their review, and their settings recommend leave dynamic backlight on and they go on to describe it "Black depth on Philips 9705H is perfect"

so dunno what I'm reading but dont need calibrating tool on my picture for my wife to say 'it's too dark' - and it is

petasis
06-12-2011, 08:35 PM
What you mean "its too dark"?

The 9705 is no dark at all, in fact it can easily reach 400 cd/m2.

But it will make black any large area that is 20 IRE and below. This means that in dark scenes (like the ones shown in the video for the potter movie), the screen will go completely black.

If you thing that it is "too dark", just put contrast above 70...

JethroUK
06-12-2011, 08:52 PM
What you mean "its too dark"?

The 9705 is no dark at all, in fact it can easily reach 400 cd/m2.

But it will make black any large area that is 20 IRE and below. This means that in dark scenes (like the ones shown in the video for the potter movie), the screen will go completely black.

If you thing that it is "too dark", just put contrast above 70...

My contrast is 100 (as is 3 of the 5 presets) which suggests the TV itself is too dark

Maybe just my set - not acceptable by anyone standard though

Freddy
06-13-2011, 12:57 AM
But it will make black any large area that is 20 IRE and below. This means that in dark scenes (like the ones shown in the video for the potter movie), the screen will go completely black.

If you thing that it is "too dark", just put contrast above 70...Just one question: where did this rumor come from?... I've seen it in many different places, but... unless the 40/46" PFL9705 is much worse than the 32" one (the one I have)... this really is not true.

I have Contrast at 76, Brightness at 51 and Dynamic Backlight at Standard; with these settings there is no black crush: I can see all the way down to 3 IRE looking at the screen from the front and even 1 IRE when looking at it from a small angle. So really... don't worry about that with a PFL9705!... :)

Toengel
06-13-2011, 10:32 AM
Hi,

can somebody explain what IRE does stand for? It would be easier for the other readers to know what you are talking about ;)

Toengel@Alex

JethroUK
06-13-2011, 10:59 AM
Do you think there is any danger of Philips engineer coming to have a look at my TV to see the problem?

I simply cant see anything happening in an scene thats shot inside

Freddy
06-13-2011, 11:56 AM
can somebody explain what IRE does stand for? It would be easier for the other readers to know what you are talking about ;)Sure!... :p In short it stands for the brightness level of the video signal, ranging from 0% black (0/7.5 IRE) to 100% white (100 IRE).
The difference in black level (0/7.5 IRE) is a regional one: 7.5 IRE for NTSC countries and 0 IRE for everyone else. The problem is that IRE is actually an analog composite video scale and should not be used for digital video data, but it still is being used everywhere. The relation between these IRE values and digital brightness levels is very much source dependent.
A more complete explanation, for the ones really interested, can be found here:
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

petasis
06-13-2011, 12:42 PM
My contrast is 100 (as is 3 of the 5 presets) which suggests the TV itself is too dark

Maybe just my set - not acceptable by anyone standard though

I think you should contact the service. The 9705 is a really bright set, it has "bright pro", which can reach 500 cd/m2. And this is a lot of light, even if you have the TV in a garden...

petasis
06-13-2011, 12:45 PM
Just one question: where did this rumor come from?... I've seen it in many different places, but... unless the 40/46" PFL9705 is much worse than the 32" one (the one I have)... this really is not true.

I have Contrast at 76, Brightness at 51 and Dynamic Backlight at Standard; with these settings there is no black crush: I can see all the way down to 6 IRE in large areas, 3 IRE in smaller ones looking at them from the front and even 1 IRE when looking at the screen from a small angle. So really... don't worry about that with a PFL9705!... :)

I am not talking about shadow detail crash. The shadow detail is enough if there is some light on the scene. But if the whole scene is too dark, then the 9705 switches all LEDs off.
So you get no picture at all. (The video of Harry Potter shows that exactly).
The 20 IRE pattern, I have tested it myself in my 46 9705 with local dimming at best picture. You can try it yourself also...

petasis
06-13-2011, 12:51 PM
Hi,

can somebody explain what IRE does stand for? It would be easier for the other readers to know what you are talking about ;)

Toengel@Alex

Please see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRE_%28unit%29

0 IRE is black, 100 IRE is white, and all the values in between are various shades of gray.
For example, here is 60 IRE:
http://www.calibrate.tv/patterns/grayfull.jpg

Toengel
06-13-2011, 02:38 PM
Hi,

thanks for clarification... :)

Toengel@Alex

Freddy
06-13-2011, 05:59 PM
I am not talking about shadow detail crash. The shadow detail is enough if there is some light on the scene. But if the whole scene is too dark, then the 9705 switches all LEDs off.
So you get no picture at all. (The video of Harry Potter shows that exactly).
The 20 IRE pattern, I have tested it myself in my 46 9705 with local dimming at best picture. You can try it yourself also...This is getting really interesting... Is this true for all owners of a 40/46" PFL9705 or 58PFL9955?...
Because for the 32PFL9705 this is really not the case!... I can even see the 5 IRE pattern, no problem. And this is with Dynamic Backlight at Standard or even Best Picture.

To test this a little further, I made yet another test picture:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TOJY_SBFUJo/TfZAl-nSIqI/AAAAAAAABQM/dxTpa0yJvbI/s0/1-8_IRE.jpg

This picture contains 8 squares, ranging from 1 to 8 IRE, in each a black (0 IRE) number. Which numbers can you read?...

petasis
06-13-2011, 06:48 PM
I will try your pattern, but I have tried this in the past:

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/petasis/Philips%2046%209705/IMG_5437.jpg

And if I remove the numbers, I simply see nothing on screen.
(The displayed levels, are PC levels, 0-255).

johngialips
06-13-2011, 07:36 PM
i tried this and i can see only the 5,6,7,8 numbers because the led behind the numbers is on.the rest screen is black.

Adamo
06-13-2011, 07:45 PM
Hi,

I can see the following numbers: 3,4,5,6,7,8.
I can't see number 1 and 2 but I see color difference of the squares.
My tv is 32pfl9705h - Dynamic Backlight settings: best picture.

Adamo

JethroUK
06-13-2011, 07:56 PM
This is getting really interesting... Is this true for all owners of a 40/46" PFL9705 or 58PFL9955?...
Because for the 32PFL9705 this is really not the case!... I can even see the 5 IRE pattern, no problem. And this is with Dynamic Backlight at Standard or even Best Picture.

To test this a little further, I made yet another test picture:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TOJY_SBFUJo/TfZAl-nSIqI/AAAAAAAABQM/dxTpa0yJvbI/s0/1-8_IRE.jpg

This picture contains 8 squares, ranging from 1 to 8 IRE, in each a black (0 IRE) number. Which numbers can you read?...

I can see squares 2-8 but i cant see any difference between 1 & 2 - shame you cant adjust your settings whilst the test card is on screen

but i cant understand why some dark scenes i cant see anything at all

is there an engineers menu i can get to?

Freddy
06-13-2011, 11:04 PM
I can see squares 2-8 but i cant see any difference between 1 & 2 - shame you cant adjust your settings whilst the test card is on screen

but i cant understand why some dark scenes i cant see anything at allWell... the problem with your tv, being a PFL8404, is that it has Global Dimming instead of Local, so it reacts a bit different to dark conditions than the PFL9705 does. The one thing I can recommend to you is probably changing the Brightness. What is your Brightness set at now?... And supposing it is still somewhat similar to the 9705, I would also set Dynamic Backlight at Standard, as that setting is less extreme in darkening the whole picture.

I can see the following numbers: 3,4,5,6,7,8.
I can't see number 1 and 2 but I see color difference of the squares.
My tv is 32pfl9705h - Dynamic Backlight settings: best picture.Your result is almost the same as mine. I can see 1 and 2 from a slight angle though, but that's probably because I have Brightness at 51 and I guess you have it at 50?...

i tried this and i can see only the 5,6,7,8 numbers because the led behind the numbers is on.the rest screen is black.What is your Brightness set at? I guess it's around 45?... Anything below 48 would really be too low.

I will try your pattern, but I have tried this in the past:

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/petasis/Philips%2046%209705/IMG_5437.jpg

And if I remove the numbers, I simply see nothing on screen.
(The displayed levels, are PC levels, 0-255).That's very bad... PC Level 28 is about 11 IRE, so that really should be visible!... So the same question for you: what is your Brightness set at?... And considering these extremely bad results, I guess your Gamma is rather high as well?...

JethroUK
06-13-2011, 11:19 PM
Well... the problem with your tv, being a PFL8404, is that it has Global Dimming instead of Local, so it reacts a bit different to dark conditions than the PFL9705 does. The one thing I can recommend to you is probably changing the Brightness. What is your Brightness set at now?... And supposing it is still somewhat similar to the 9705, I would also set Dynamic Backlight at Standard, as that setting is less extreme in darkening the whole picture.

I have brightness at 50 but turning it up just makes the picture milky
Contrast is 100
Dynamic Backlight is Off altogether - read this somewhere and it has made the darkness brighter albeit indoor scene from Eastenders still looks like a scene from the abyss

Freddy
06-13-2011, 11:44 PM
I have brightness at 50 but turning it up just makes the picture milky
Contrast is 100
Dynamic Backlight is Off altogether - read this somewhere and it has made the darkness brighter albeit indoor scene from Eastenders still looks like a scene from the abyssIn that case I would ask someone from Philips to have a look at it, because that does not sound like how it should be. Contrast at 100 is really way more than should be necessary. I guess the Backlight is defective then...

petasis
06-14-2011, 10:42 AM
That's very bad... PC Level 28 is about 11 IRE, so that really should be visible!... So the same question for you: what is your Brightness set at?... And considering these extremely bad results, I guess your Gamma is rather high as well?...

I have "calibrated the TV" with a meter, and compared it side by side with a calibrated kuro.
The brightness is 48, the contrast 67, and gamma is at 2 (which gives around 2.2 gamma).
The preset is cinema (which I think has as default 3 for gamma).
And nothing is visible below 20 IRE (if there is anything bright on screen).

My TV is a 46 PFL 9705H/12.

Freddy
06-14-2011, 04:17 PM
I have "calibrated the TV" with a meter, and compared it side by side with a calibrated kuro.
The brightness is 48, the contrast 67, and gamma is at 2 (which gives around 2.2 gamma).
The preset is cinema (which I think has as default 3 for gamma).
And nothing is visible below 20 IRE (if there is anything bright on screen).

My TV is a 46 PFL 9705H/12.Gamma at 2 is correct, yes. However both the brightness and especially the contrast are rather low.
I understand you say you calibrated it and compared it with a calibrated Kuro, but that might just be the problem: while the Kuro might still be the best plasma ever, it is still a plasma. I mean, it has great shadow detail, with good blacks, but rather weak light output.
Our "beloved" :P 9705 has other strengths: it has very strong light output, and thanks to Local Dimming it has deep blacks and still good shadow detail.
But that means it needs a bit more light to achieve its best form: black crush starts to happen with contrast below 75 and shadow detail is lost with brightness below 50. So if you want to be able to see everything in even the darker movies, like the Harry Potter ones, you should keep the contrast at 75/76 and the brightness at 50/51.

petasis
06-14-2011, 08:24 PM
Gamma at 2 is correct, yes. However both the brightness and especially the contrast are rather low.
I understand you say you calibrated it and compared it with a calibrated Kuro, but that might just be the problem: while the Kuro might still be the best plasma ever, it is still a plasma. I mean, it has great shadow detail, with good blacks, but rather weak light output.
Our "beloved" :P 9705 has other strengths: it has very strong light output, and thanks to Local Dimming it has deep blacks and still good shadow detail.
But that means it needs a bit more light to achieve its best form: black crush starts to happen with contrast below 75 and shadow detail is lost with brightness below 50. So if you want to be able to see everything in even the darker movies, like the Harry Potter ones, you should keep the contrast at 75/76 and the brightness at 50/51.

I checked my settings, and you are right. The brightness contrast seems to have a large effect on the output. Even if I have contrast at 67, if brightness is at 56, I can see both patterns.

johngialips
06-14-2011, 08:35 PM
Gamma at 2 is correct, yes. However both the brightness and especially the contrast are rather low.
I understand you say you calibrated it and compared it with a calibrated Kuro, but that might just be the problem: while the Kuro might still be the best plasma ever, it is still a plasma. I mean, it has great shadow detail, with good blacks, but rather weak light output.
Our "beloved" :P 9705 has other strengths: it has very strong light output, and thanks to Local Dimming it has deep blacks and still good shadow detail.
But that means it needs a bit more light to achieve its best form: black crush starts to happen with contrast below 75 and shadow detail is lost with brightness below 50. So if you want to be able to see everything in even the darker movies, like the Harry Potter ones, you should keep the contrast at 75/76 and the brightness at 50/51.

i took potters video with cinema presets (contrast 80,brightnes 50) and i have this terrible result.
also your test is with cinema presets.

johngialips
06-14-2011, 08:46 PM
i did your test again but i erased the numbers.now the first visible image is when i set brightness at 61(three leds on).always with cinema presets.

Freddy
06-14-2011, 10:34 PM
I checked my settings, and you are right. The brightness contrast seems to have a large effect on the output. Even if I have contrast at 67, if brightness is at 56, I can see both patterns.I'm glad this problem is finally solved! :)
i took potters video with cinema presets (contrast 80,brightnes 50) and i have this terrible result.
also your test is with cinema presets.All I can say about that is that the Cinema preset has Gamma at 3, which is slightly dark. Put it at 2 and it should look better.

johngialips
06-15-2011, 04:10 PM
All I can say about that is that the Cinema preset has Gamma at 3, which is slightly dark. Put it at 2 and it should look better.

only gamma from 3 to 2 is not enough.i try with gamma at -4 just for test and yes,i haven't black screen.only the <<Christmas tree>> effect.of course this is not a solution.
i appreciate philips gives a solution to this problem or just an answer what can i do for this.
please don't officially ignoring us if you can.