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zlatko
12-24-2011, 01:50 PM
I want to confirm the issue with 9000 LEDpro model's screens reported by @ericscheepers for his 46PFL9706 in this forum. I have 52PFL9606 with panel code 301.
Problem is that one can see vertical shadow stripes when big areas of the picture is colored with single, light shade of color(white, blue) and the TV is panning(moving picture horizontally). This is noticeable for me mainly when watching Alpine skiing or football games.
It looks like the screen itself has vertical shadow stripes - like dirt or LEDs not having homogenous intensity. This is NOT color banding. This is totally different issue.
I went to see same TV set in a retailer shop - issue is present there as well. So it is not just my display having this fault.
I would like to see some official Philips reply on this.
Happy holidays to everyone!

PS.This problem with Philips TV screens is now widely known as Dirty Screen Effect - DSE.

Cinema 21:9
12-27-2011, 12:43 PM
Also, the Cinema 21:9 the new generation models indicate this error. It looks like banding, in the middle of the picture, it begins with a hard vertical stripes and to the right is the picture in a dark vertical movement! For this error there is in Hififorum a confirmation of several owners. Here, this error shows in a startling uniformity on multiple devices!
Google Translator

bmandersen
01-01-2012, 03:21 PM
This is a known problem also for the 2010 models of Philips TVs. See http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?1693-Vertical-band-visible-during-panning-shots-on-58PFL9955

However, I doubt you will get any official admission of this problem from Philips. The last time I was complaining about this to Philips support I was told that “vertical inhomogene lines” should not be any problem with my 46pfl9705 TV and was asked to send the TV to Philips support for repair. When it returned, allegedly with a new panel, it still had the same problem.

I’m looking at “tour de ski” from Oberstdorf and the 9705 picture quality is tragic.

zlatko
01-01-2012, 03:49 PM
@bmandersen
Thank you for acknowledging it. From what I have read so far to get rid of this issue one has to swap TV sets until he finds out one without that issue. Which might not be possible. I can't see myself transporting my 52" screen every week back and forth Philips service centre until I spot a perfect panel. If I know that Philips will let me choose from 10-20 TV sets at once then I can do this - that makes sense.
In my TV the issue is not very noticeable so I can live with it.
I hope Philips will acknowledge the problem and issue some warranty statement, but as I see how company is behaving so far that's hard to believe. None of the Philips representative here even bothered to say "We will check it"...

Freddy
01-01-2012, 05:30 PM
I’m looking at “tour de ski” from Oberstdorf and the 9705 picture quality is tragic.
While I have seen these Backlight Banding problems in the 46PFL9706 (and therefore probably also in the 52PFL9606), I haven't seen it much in the previous 9705 generation.

Your describing it as "tragic" makes me wonder, as I was watching another ski event today (ski jumping in Garmisch-Partenkirchen) and it did show some banding, but... this was in the signal itself (i.e. MPEG Banding): are you sure the banding you're experiencing isn't in the signal either?...

By the way: Happy New Year everyone! :D

bmandersen
01-01-2012, 05:35 PM
I also believe that the only way to get ride of this problem is to swap the TV or change the LCD panel. What upset me is that even when Philips encouraged me to return my TV because of problems with unhomogeneous horizontal lines, they still were not able to change the panel to a panel of reasonable quality regarding these problem. Previous I have had my TV on service for repair five or six times (I’ve lost count) for various reasons and have given up the idea of sending it back to them again. After all I bought it for me to watch TV, not to loan it to Philips service partner

I guess this is not the TV to buy if one likes to watch football or winter sports.

bmandersen
01-01-2012, 05:56 PM
While I have seen these Backlight Banding problems in the 46PFL9706 (and therefore probably also in the 52PFL9606), I haven't seen it much in the previous 9705 generation.

Your describing it as "tragic" makes me wonder, as I was watching another ski event today (ski jumping in Garmisch-Partenkirchen) and it did show some banding, but... this was in the signal itself (i.e. MPEG Banding): are you sure the banding you're experiencing isn't in the signal either?...

By the way: Happy New Year everyone! :D

All together I have had several panels installed in my, up till now, two 46pfl9705 sets. I know the problem vary between panels. My two last panels have been really bad. I can also see the horizontal lines in other occasions. It’s like having dirty statically vertical stripes on the LCD surface.

Happy new year to you too!! :-)

zlatko
01-01-2012, 08:34 PM
@Freddy
It is not MPEG related issue, the vertical shadow stripes are there no matter the event you watch. They are always on the same places like the screen itself(physically) has these stripes incorporated in the protective layer or the back lighting is slightly of different intensity. Believe me - I work at field for years now(DTH operator), dealing with professional grade MPEG encoding system and I know the limitations and artefacts of MPEG(be it 2 or 4)
I watched both ski-jumping and ski run today(Eurosport HD) - there was nothing wrong with the signal(I have 9603 in the other room, so I make direct comparison).
Anyway it is bad for Philips as company not to react to such an clear issue. From the other side I understand them - what they can do? Replace all these 2000+ euro TV sets? With what? I assume there is no spotless screen in that aspect, so what can I get - end up with a slightly less noticeable(may be!) shadow stripes? And that after all that mess of a several exchanges?! But a simple official acknowledgement of the issue, promise to get it sorted for next year(and may be offer to get discount on next year model for 9-series owners) will have been great.

Happy New Year! ;-)

Freddy
01-02-2012, 12:02 PM
It's very sad that so many people are experiencing these problems, especially with the 2011 range (9706/9606). I hadn't seen it in the 2010 range (9705), but apparently (some of) the bigger sizes (40/46") have it too. Luckily I have the 32PFL9705 version, which does not have THIS problem... Others of course, but not this one... ;)

zlatko
01-02-2012, 08:42 PM
@Freddy
Thanks Freddy!
Yes, it is interesting that even the obligatory "Bring your TV set to authorised service partner blah-blah-blah" was not posted by an official Philips rep here...

Rephlex
01-09-2012, 10:28 AM
Zlatko

I have exactly the same problem as you very describe - the "dirty" effect is on the same parts of the screen as a single bright/light colour moves over the screen. I have also noticed horizontal stripes (much less frequent) when a picture pans up/down. I note that the "dirty" stripes are not straight.

What have you decided to do with your tv? Do we know if anyone with a 2011 9000 series tv (46" or higher) does NOT experience this issue? If that is the case then it would appear that there is a chance of swapping and getting a panel that does not have this issue.

Even if this issue is present in all panels then I still do not now whether to replace with a different brand (e.g. Sony HX923) as, except for the dirty issue, I am blown away by the picture quality and the issue only shows up in a minority of situations. I also know that other brands (such as the Sony HX923) have their own problems.

Rephlex

zlatko
01-09-2012, 12:06 PM
@Rephlex
Yes, the stripes are not rectangles, but just more or less vertical bands.
I have seen this issue on one more 52" in display in retail shop, so I can't say if all screen suffer from it.
As you said, picture is otherwise brilliant and I fear the mess of going to repair etc. My suggestion is we get Philips attention on this in some way and if they issue a warranty case(which I doubt) then it would be easier to get swap or some benefit from it.
But so far no Philips official answer on this.

zlatko
02-08-2012, 07:20 AM
BUMP
Anyone from Philips will care take a look at our complain? That is NOT the way a respectable company will behave...and that is NOT the way an individual who have some self esteem shall behave when being a company face on the web!

zlatko
03-07-2012, 10:58 AM
As Philips officials here are silently ignoring the multiple complains about DSE I want to suggest to all users that experience this issue to sign an e-mail letter with our TV sets serial numbers and send it directly to Philips support in general and our local representatives as well.
Anybody in?

petasis
03-07-2012, 08:27 PM
Nice, in Philips we now call it DSE, the sony guys call it the "crest effect", and the samsung guys don't have a name yet... :)

And we don't even know the cause of this. Is it the panel, or the way the panel is driven? (i.e. overdrive artifact? )

I hope somebody from Philips will make a comment on it...

Has anyone managed to capture it on a screenshot?

zlatko
03-07-2012, 08:46 PM
@petasis
It is very hard to capture it, on still shot - impossible. You got to have a panning camera shot with light homogenous colored background so you are able to see that the bands are actually not part of the picture, but onscreen defect. And even then most capturing devices will not be good enough to give the viewer opportunity to notice DSE.

PS. Can you give links to SONY/Samsung threads with discussion about "crest effect"?

petasis
03-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Yes, but they are in Greek. I also misspelled the sony name, is "crease effect".
I have found this in English: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-hx923-crease-201107011261.htm

Regarding samsung, just today an owner asked what are these vertical bars (or "columns") he sees during footbal matches, on a 3-year old samsung model:

http://translate.google.gr/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=el&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.gr%2Fforum%2Fshowthread. php%2F42778-Samsung-B650-LCD-Reviews-%CE%95%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CF%8E%CF%83%CE%B5%C E%B9%CF%82-%CE%A3%CF%87%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%B1%3Fp%3D1056385 642%26viewfull%3D1%23ποςτ1056385642 (http://translate.google.gr/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=el&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avclub.gr%2Fforum%2Fshowthread. php%2F42778-Samsung-B650-LCD-Reviews-%CE%95%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CF%8E%CF%83%CE%B5%C E%B9%CF%82-%CE%A3%CF%87%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%B1%3Fp%3D1056385 642%26viewfull%3D1%23%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82%CF%8410563 85642)

(The translation is bad, its the 3rd post on the page)

zlatko
03-08-2012, 10:01 PM
@petasis
Thanks man!I was in dilemma between 9606 and SONY 920, bought Philips because of the Ambilight and matte screen. Looks like 920 has an DSE of its own, at least SONY is acknowledging and investigating, when Philips is burring its head in the sand.

petasis
03-09-2012, 09:48 AM
Everybody (unfortunately) is burring its head in the sand. It has been observed in Philips, Sony, Samsung TVs, and I believe also in other brands, but there are not many users to learn about it. There is not a single piece of information about why this is happening, so as to seek a solution.

Regarding the 920, I would have also chosen 9606 over it. Not that the 920 is a bad TV, but its local dimming is lesser. Not as in fewer zones (although the 920 has much fewer zones), but as a dimming effect. It is more "subtle" in 920, which gives an edge in reviews (i.e. smoother gamma), but less contrast.
If you decide to go the local dimming way, why not with a device which takes full advantage of it (with an ANSI contrast of more than 6000:1), instead of a "mild" one, which will give you around 4000:1, comparable with top plasma devices?

zlatko
03-09-2012, 09:58 AM
@petasis
Indeed. And the matte screen on 9606(although not Motheye as in 9706) is a BIG advantage for me over 920 shiny glass.
I am in contact with local Philips service care in regards with DSE. Bumped into a very knowledgeable and supportive engineer, he has escalated the issue to Philips over seeing 2 9706 and mine 9606 with DSE.
So far Philips advice was "Turn off Dynamic backlight and look if issue still there". Which was the first thing I didi when I notice DSE 3 months ago, first day of having TV set home. Anyway we returned the result and now waiting.
I didn't want to go "panel change" road, but now if that is what Philips suggests I will do it, solely because of this guy. He promised to order panel, the when it has arrived to bring my TV to him, change panel in an hour, test together and bring my TV back home same day.

petasis
03-09-2012, 10:20 AM
To say the truth, I wouldn't go that way. I have an 9705, I saw this effect, I said ok, the model has this. I see it sometimes in footbal, and skies. Not that frequent. Should I change my panel? I decided no...

The strange thing with internet, is that you can find all sorts of information. My 9705 was a really early model (I am the first customer in Greece of that model), and when we realised how bad the 3D was, I read tons of speculation on the net. Users comparing serials, weeks of manufacture, and user "opinions" about how "perfect" their 3D was, after a certain week.

So, they drew lines, buy a model after that date, change your panel, change your board...

Do you think anything changed in their TVs? I don't think so. And few of them, didn't like their new panels, or its installation.

My opinion is that you have observe these lines, you have to decide how much it bothers you. Since you complained about display problems on your TV, the first reaction of service will be to change your panel. But I am not so sure if the new panel is the solution. You may end up torturing your TV for no reason. :)

But this is just my opinion, which may be totally useless...

(I don't want to mention that your TV is calibrated from the factory with its original panel, and I doubt if the service has the expensive equipment to redo this adjustment. You will end up with some reasonable - but default - values).

zlatko
03-09-2012, 10:33 AM
@petasis
Thank you for the opinion! :)
As I wrote - we are still in process of escalating this issue with local Philips care. Together with engineer we agreed that it is stupid to change panel if the new one will for sure have the same issue. Neither me, nor he have seen 9706 or 9606 without DSE.
Actually yesterday over phone he told me that Philips replied positively that there IS an issue with 9706 panels they are aware of, but they have no reports for 52PFL9606 so far.
I haven't thought about TV being calibrated with the actual panel - that alone can put me off change UNLESS I am sure I will get "DSE free" panel fitted.

PS. May be manufacturers must add a sticker "DSE free" to all other "Full HD 3D", "Smart TV" stuff! :D

zlatko
03-12-2012, 02:21 PM
Update: Today I visited local Philips repair service where they have 9706 with DSE. There was e-mail exchange between repair service and Philips, it mentioned "undergoing investigation on banding issues on 9706 Sharp panels". So there is something going on, but how it will be resolved - we have yet to see.
Still no such investigation on 52" sharp panels in 9606, as they haven't had complains so far. So please fellow owner of 52PFL9606 with DSE - do complain to Philips either directly or through you local repair services!

@petasis
I have learned another point against panel change - the panels installed for such changes are not always new ones, but refurbished. When repair service changes your (faulty)panel it is returned to Philips and they return it to manufacturer(Sharp in this case). Sharp is repairing the panels and return them to Philips, which uses them for exchange again. So it is russian roulette if you will get new one or refurbished.

petasis
03-12-2012, 06:30 PM
I am not sure a panel can be "repaired"...

Regarding DSE, I would examine the LCD overdrive algorithm, if I was Philips...
(Which may not be controlled by Philips at all, but by the Sharp board that drives the panel).

zlatko
03-12-2012, 06:35 PM
@petasis
I suppose "repaired" not as means of LCD matrix, but some electronic components, controllers etc.
But repair engineer clearly said he had received from Philips panels as spare parts that are "refurbished".
It is pity you are not Philips, 'cause they do not want to move a finger even to investigate the DSE reports. ;)

Dimovey
03-26-2012, 03:46 PM
I confirm DSE issue on 52PFL9606H/12. I bought it week ago in Russia, manufactured in Hungary.
I will definitely report to Philips central support about it.

findftp
04-09-2012, 08:02 PM
I confirm this problem on a 40pfl7605h which was replaced by a 3d 42pfl7606h with the *same* problem after they had changed the panel from the 40pfl7605h 4 times! (and motherboard *only* once)
New TV 42pfl7606h has same problem, but I feel like being shut up by philips because they give a really good service by replacing with newer model with 3D.
At the other hand, I cannot watch horizontal panning video, dark blobs are always very annoying.

I have a solution for this problem which I already demonstrated for myself to be working.
I cannot tell because I'm not sure If I (or my boss) should patent the idea (I work at TNO, Netherlands)

Manuel
04-09-2012, 09:51 PM
Every body talking about Full Led, the two Tv's you refer are Led edge.........


I confirm this problem on a 40pfl7605h which was replaced by a 3d 42pfl7606h with the *same* problem after they had changed the panel from the 40pfl7605h 4 times! (and motherboard *only* once)
New TV 42pfl7606h has same problem, but I feel like being shut up by philips because they give a really good service by replacing with newer model with 3D.
At the other hand, I cannot watch horizontal panning video, dark blobs are always very annoying.

I have a solution for this problem which I already demonstrated for myself to be working.
I cannot tell because I'm not sure If I (or my boss) should patent the idea (I work at TNO, Netherlands)

findftp
04-10-2012, 12:16 AM
Does that really make a difference?

zlatko
05-16-2012, 09:20 PM
Attached to this post are images of my 52PFL9606 and @jd1's 2x46PFL9706 - bad one and good one. It is hard to spot DSE on static image but if you look carefully - it is there.
112311241122

Dimovey
05-17-2012, 05:18 AM
Hi Zlatko,

My screen is difenetly worse:( Still waiting for confirmation from local service about screen replacement.

zlatko
05-17-2012, 06:33 AM
@Dimovey
Can you post a picture of your screen with white background here? It will be interesting to compare screen before and after the panel change.
I think what is good in your case is that the replacement screen must be for sure better than current one :)
From my experience so far, DSE seems to be varying from panel to panel, but never non-existent.

Dimovey
05-19-2012, 09:56 AM
Here several photo of my 52PFL9606 screen, not white background only:
1126112711281129

Gray very good indicates DSE areas

zlatko
05-19-2012, 10:14 AM
@Dimovey
I should say from the pics our screens show similar amount of DSE. It is tolerable, but not acceptable on 2000 euros flagship TV set.
Looking forward to your report on panel change.

Dimovey
05-19-2012, 10:35 AM
Here in Russia it costs around €2500, so this crap on the screen is out of my conception of top TV model.
Yesterday I called to the service for updates-Philips didn't confirm screen replacement having current information, they asked to take other photos (no idea of what exactly-picture, back side of panel etc), so I'm waiting for the next visit of engineers.

zlatko
05-19-2012, 10:41 AM
@Dimovey
Keep us posted how it goes. I am still hoping for a general Philips statement on this issue.
After that I will decide how to proceed.

Brakius
05-19-2012, 07:12 PM
I have a 9706 with DSE. I have made a test which you can put on a usb stick. In a map there are some pictures and you can play it on the TV. And when it has DSE after some time you can see on the soft yellow and white pictures stripes and dirty effects.

Link:
http://www.duvessa.nl/test.zip

zlatko
05-19-2012, 11:54 PM
....I have a 9706 with DSE....

I am yet to see one without it :P
Or meet an owner of 2011 Philips 9-serie with eye for PQ that doesn't see DSE on his screen.

a_Tom
05-21-2012, 06:47 PM
hey brakius; can you please reupload this files?!?:
Reason: Violation of a compressed file restriction.
or upload them directly to the forum

Brakius
05-21-2012, 07:36 PM
I upload it again, same link. I do not get a violation error.

Dimovey
05-24-2012, 09:56 AM
Well, minor update-yesterday engineers took new pics of my screen that Philips Russia service requested, so I'm again waiting for a feedback or confirmation on screen replacement.

scandisk
06-05-2012, 05:02 AM
wow, is incredible, Philips stopped of import televisions to Chile in 2008 and now i see that since the television plant of Philips was sold to Funai the quality of the philips televisions left too much to desire.

supposed that Philips now they do not manufacturate televisions, it does by Funai industry that and just put an badge Philips to be sold the sets , just a bad move by part of Philips.

i had a very good brand image of the philips p´roducts but looks like with those problems and lack of response by part of Philips headquarters, the people will get another television and also the brand image will be just deteriorated by such bad decisions, just a shame.

best regards
Francisco

an good consumer of Philips products in overseas.

DanFK
06-05-2012, 06:32 PM
I have the same problem on a 52pfl9606h, Philips replace the TV and it have the same problem... It's incredible... Please Philips, find a solution.....

If this a support forum from Philips, why Philips don't tell us something about... If the problem is truth in a lot of TV's (or all) I suposed that Philips is looking for a solution, please, some info Philips.

zlatko
06-05-2012, 06:52 PM
@DanFK
Thank you for sharing your experience!
As far as I see it - every TV set from from 2011 9-series with screen bigger than 40" is suffering from DSE. Only severity varies. So exchange is not a resolution.
Which does not leave Philips with many options here. Probably they will pretend such issue is not existing and wait for the "storm" to pass by. It is ridiculous for us to think that we, owners of premium 9-series will be offered any way out of the situation. But let see and hope time will prove me wrong.

DanFK
06-09-2012, 02:40 PM
I take a photo from my TV with a pure white, this is the result, a lot of vertical bands all around the pannel... It's more apprecciable during horizontal displacements. It's my second 52pfl9606h with the same problem, the firmware version is the last 014.098

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4449/20120519242.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/20120519242.jpg/)

buyukbang
06-11-2012, 11:42 AM
Hi all from Turkey,

I bought 52PFL9606H this weekend.

After reading lots of TV discussions during the last 2 months, I decided to add only 2 TV models in my shopping list list: Sony 55HX850 and Philips 52PFL9606H . All other brands had much much more problems for my acceptance.

Before my purchase, I have read all your DSE related messages here (and on other forums) about 9 series. So I was completely aware of this issue. You can call me crazy but really not, just desperate. Because none of the current LED TV brands/models is problem-free, this is the result of all my TV investigation process during the last 2 months.

Me and My wife went to a local Darty store in Istanbul and compared these two TV models side by side. I had a usb stick containing jpeg files to test death pixels, clouding, led backlighting, etc. As expected I found DSE/banding on 52PFL9606 as the same amount in the above attached photographs. But we also find that Sony 55HX850 had a bit more (like %30/40) DSE/banding effect ! I asked my wife to be sure, she said Sony had more DSE, too.

I had read lots of things about the both models and decided the biggest problem in 9 series is DSE (I'm not interested in internal tuner, recording or multimedia file playing capabilities); but Sony had even more ! Additionally I have read 4-5 more problems written by Sony owners. So Philips became the best option for us. I purchuased a new closed boxed 52PFL9606H, it also had DSE/banding effect like the one in the store.

I'm sure it's pretty normal to expect no issue on a high end TV like this, but unfortunately this is a fact that Led TV technology had lots of problems. But I still prefer Led's over Plasma's . I'll not enter Plasma discussions here, but "Plasma problems list" is much more irritating me. Anyway, I'm happy with my new purchase, but still would appreciate to Philips if they can fix DSE with a software update (However not sure they could) .

zlatko
06-11-2012, 12:48 PM
@buyukbang
You have made a good choice! I was choosing between 52PFL9606 and SONY 55HX920 myself. There are many strong points in Philips 9series - ambilight, matte screen, video processing, local dimming has more zones etc. I (like you) use the TV as a big screen only, no tuner, no sound, no mediaplayer needed. I only wish there was Skype as in 2k12 models.
Anyway I agree some DSE issues are present in other brands top screens, but that is not an excuse for Philips. Customers are demanding quality for the money they pay for premium product. And fair treatment. Philips at least can acknowledge DSE, investigate the cause and give us a statement, be it "This is a rough edge of new LED technology".
Thank you for sharing your experience with us! That's what makes internet forums great sources of information!
@DanFK
I can tell you from your pic - I have similar amount of DSE on my screen. We keep piling evidence, let see if there will be Philips reaction to this. ;)

buyukbang
06-11-2012, 01:32 PM
Hi Zlatko,

I even didn't install stand/ tv speakers like you. I think our usage models are completely same. Picture quality and amblight is amazing. BTW, I completely agree your demands. I wish Philips can take actions to solve DSE issue.

For your information, 2012 Sony models lost its high built quality to lower the costs and prizes. I read lots of dead pixel reports after 1-2 weeks usage. I'm afraid the same will apply Philips 2012 models. One of the reasons of not waiting Philips 9xx7 was this suspect.


@buyukbang
You have made a good choice! I was choosing between 52PFL9606 and SONY 55HX920 myself. There are many strong points in Philips 9series - ambilight, matte screen, video processing, local dimming has more zones etc. I (like you) use the TV as a big screen only, no tuner, no sound, no mediaplayer needed. I only wish there was Skype as in 2k12 models.
Anyway I agree some DSE issues are present in other brands top screens, but that is not an excuse for Philips. Customers are demanding quality for the money they pay for premium product. And fair treatment. Philips at least can acknowledge DSE, investigate the cause and give us a statement, be it "This is a rough edge of new LED technology".
Thank you for sharing your experience with us! That's what makes internet forums great sources of information!
@DanFK
I can tell you from your pic - I have similar amount of DSE on my screen. We keep piling evidence, let see if there will be Philips reaction to this. ;)

zlatko
06-11-2012, 01:41 PM
@buyukbang
From what I read even Philips 2k12 9-series will not be Direct LED, but Edge lit. And as I am buying TV for the next 5 years when OLEDs will take the stage I think I have made the right decision. Waiting more will not bring any significant improvements in local dimming LED screens. What I wish I had in 9606 is 60" screen version(there IS in 2k12), Motheye filter, Skype and DSE free panel.
As I watch a lot of Alpine skiing DSE is very annoying. On football as well. Movies are no issue - I completely forget about DSE.

Freddy
06-11-2012, 03:27 PM
Hi guys,

just two small "corrections": ;)


From what I read even Philips 2k12 9-series will not be Direct LED, but Edge lit.
This is NOT true. 2012 9-Series WILL feature Direct Local Dimming LED technology. Exact specs are still unknown.


Philips at least can acknowledge DSE, investigate the cause and give us a statement, be it "This is a rough edge of new LED technology".
In fact it is "an extremely rough edge", caused by wrong priorities, insisting on making panels thinner and thinner. The thinner a Direct LED panel is, the more suspicious you should be of DSE.

zlatko
06-11-2012, 06:04 PM
@Freddy
Thank you for the info! :)
I was mislead because in specs I saw it was stated "Advanced Micro Dimming" which for me implies Edge LED. Can you point to source where you got the info about 2k12 being Direct LED?
On the market here currently only 3 models using Direct LED: Philips 9 series, SONY HX92X and Sharp Elite series . All of them are not so thin compared to edge lit screens.

Freddy
06-12-2012, 12:32 AM
I was mislead because in specs I saw it was stated "Advanced Micro Dimming" which for me implies Edge LED.I understand. It's a "Marketing Miracle" :p to give two completely different technologies nearly the same name...


On the market here currently only 3 models using Direct LED: Philips 9 series, SONY HX92X and Sharp Elite series . All of them are not so thin compared to edge lit screens.
But they are, compared to the 2010 Direct LED models, which had very little DSE, if any.

P.S.: I just noticed this was post #200 for me!!! :D :o :cool: ;)

buyukbang
06-12-2012, 06:17 AM
Do you mean "Full" Led with "Direct" Led, sorry I'm not used for this term. But if you mean "Full", just for your information, none of the Sony 2011/2012 models are full Led including Sony HX92X, which is Edge Led with local dimming.


@Freddy
Thank you for the info! :)
I was mislead because in specs I saw it was stated "Advanced Micro Dimming" which for me implies Edge LED. Can you point to source where you got the info about 2k12 being Direct LED?
On the market here currently only 3 models using Direct LED: Philips 9 series, SONY HX92X and Sharp Elite series . All of them are not so thin compared to edge lit screens.

zlatko
06-12-2012, 06:40 AM
@Freddy
What do you suppose is cause of DSE? And how is it related to thickness of TV set?

@buyukbang
There are 2 types of LED lit screens in regards to LEDs position in relation to screen - Edge and Direct. As far as I know there is no term "Full LED", this might by some marketing gimmick.
Direct - LEDs placed directly behind LCD panel.
Edge - LEDs placed on the side edges of LCD panel.
And SONY HX929 is Direct LED screen, NOT an Edge lit. http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&partNumber=XBR55HX929
Or may be you mean "full-array LED"? Which is same as Direct LED. Anyway for me it is better to use Direct LED as this clearly state the position of LEDs behind screen.
You can have Direct LED with or without local dimming. Both SONY 55HX929 and 52PFLPhilips 9606 are Direct LED with local dimming.
Edge LED screens do not have local dimming, because of the nature of their built they can not dim zones locally. Some of them can dim stripes. They have also so called Micro Dimming which is a SW trick.

buyukbang
06-12-2012, 07:31 AM
OK,

In my country (and strangely in the international reviews I read ) TV's categorized as Edge Led and Full Led, this is my first time encoured the term "Direct", but after goggling I understand that Full and Direct are just synonyms.

I just googled for some more information for XBR series:
http://askville.amazon.com/difference-sony-xbr-series-kdl/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=33505321

In my country only KDL-HX920 model is available, which is and Edge Led. But AFAI understand XBR series have full led array, as you say. XBR-HX929 has 15x7=105 dimming zones according to this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1318875/official-sony-hx929-owners-thread-46hx929-55hx929-65hx929-no-price-talk/2250

But KDL series have a different story:

http://www.techmagnifier.com/1476/television/sony-kdl55hx925-tv-price-in-india.aspx
"Sony BRAVIA KDL-55HX925 include a TV that has edge LED backlit LCD panel"

http://archive.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/article.jsp?article_id=116398&cat_id=898
"Sony BRAVIA KDL-55HX925 is an edge LED-backlit LCD "




Freddy
What do you suppose is cause of DSE? And how is it related to thickness of TV set?
@buyukbang
There are 2 types of LED lit screens in regards to LEDs position behind screen - Edge and Direct. As far as I know there is no term "Full LED", this might by some marketing gimmick.
Direct - LEDs placed directly behind LCD panel.
Edge - LEDs placed on the side edges of LCD panel.
And SONY HX929 is Direct LED screen, NOT an Edge lit. http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&partNumber=XBR55HX929
You can have Direct LED with or without local dimming. Both SONY 55HX929 and 52PFLPhilips 9606 are Direct LED with local dimming.
Edge LED screens do not have local dimming, because of the nature of their built they can not dim zones locally. Some of them can dim stripes. They have also so called Micro Dimming which is a SW trick.

zlatko
06-12-2012, 07:44 AM
@buyukbang
Yes, looks so :) Anyway - we are speaking about same thing.
About SONY 55HX92X - we must be careful, because there may be different versions. 925/929 are Direct LEDs according to SONY itself: http://www.sony.com.au/product/kdl-55hx925 . Below is SONY description of Intelligent PEAK LED used in 925/929:

Intelligent Peak LED
This system varies backlight brightness in real time, according to what is shown on screen. An array of LEDs directly behind the screen divides the picture into numerous zones, each of which can be dimmed or boosted independently. The resulting picture has a powerful combination of intense highlights, brighter whites and deep rich, satisfying blacks and shadow detail.
May be different regions - different products under same name?
But enough offtopic - lets concentrate on getting rid of our very own DSE ;)

Freddy
06-12-2012, 11:12 AM
What do you suppose is cause of DSE? And how is it related to thickness of TV set?
Well... first of all there are many kinds of DSE:

1 - It can be in the source, called MPEG Banding; this one is very common and often mistaken for one of the other kinds;
2 - It can really be a Dirty Screen, when there is a glass cover in front of the panel; not very common though;
3 - It can be in the panel itself; a manufacturing defect, often seen as a number of thin vertical lines;
4 - And finally, the one we're dealing with here, it can be in the backlight.


In case of the backlight caused DSE, there are again two sub-kinds:

- there is of course the clouding issue that Edge LED models experience, caused by insufficient light guiding;
- and there is the banding problem on Direct LED models.

The banding problem can be caused by either not enough LEDs to properly fill the entire screen (not the case here), or it can be caused by something similar as what is causing clouding: insufficient light guiding.
The light being produced by the LEDs, be it on the Edge or Directly behind the screen, has to be guided (by lenses and diffusers) so that it equally fills the entire screen, without showing any darker or brighter spots. The thinner the screen is, the harder it is to accomplish this.

Look at it this way: you're holding two torches, one in your left hand and one in your right. Point them at the wall, standing a couple of feet away. The light beams from the two torches overlap one another, creating a large oval bright area on your wall. Now slowly walk towards the wall and see what's happening. The closer you get to the wall, the more the two beams are separated from each other. In the end, when they're almost touching the wall, there are two distinct overly bright spots separated by a dark area in between.

Now there is a problem... created by design decisions: looks over quality!... :rolleyes:

zlatko
06-12-2012, 11:53 AM
@Freddy
Thank you for this discussion buddy! :)
Yes, my question was about DSE issue with backlight and relation with screen thickness.
Your analogy is good and I think explanation is plausible! :) Let see how Direct LED screens develop in the future.

Dimovey
06-18-2012, 07:38 AM
Hey everybody,

It seems my battle is finished and I'm defeated. After all tests and checks Philips said that my screen satisfies the requirements and no issues at all. If I want to replace my TV screen I have to pay for it. the only way now is to break own mind and try to don't draw attention to it. Anyway, this is real BS!!!

zlatko
06-25-2012, 02:37 PM
@Dimovey
Sorry to hear that! Looks like now we are screwed - Philips is not acknowledging DSE and is not willing to take any action. We have to live with this issue until we switch to another TV set. I will see what can be done with my local service shop.

Dimovey
06-25-2012, 03:57 PM
@Zlatko
Exactly, the problem here is not about technical things, but rejection of DSE as a defect by Philips. It is rediculos , but after last reply from the company they sent me email with request to fill in a feedback form about TV that they could publish on site. I provided it and mostly wrote about DSE and how Philips consider it. I believe they already have enough positive marks from other users, that is why my reply was 90% negative. It is easy to guess that my review was not published with note that I'd violated some points of Instruction. They also kindly provided a link to Instruction, but it does not work with 404 error. What I could expect if I didn't glorify Philips? Very sad experience...

GuiltyNL
10-09-2012, 06:29 PM
2012 9-Series WILL feature Direct Local Dimming LED technology. Exact specs are still unknown.


In fact it is "an extremely rough edge", caused by wrong priorities, insisting on making panels thinner and thinner. The thinner a Direct LED panel is, the more suspicious you should be of DSE.

Today I was 'lucky' to be one of the first in the world to pickup the new 9000 series TV, I bought the 46PFL9707 screen.

Previously I had the 46PFL9706 but after swapping this screen twice, Philips gave me the option to return the TV and get a refund.

Unfortunately the new 9707 screen is much worse, the DSE is horrible. The screen is very inhomogene, less sharp than my Samsung 6500 series screen I had temporarily (this Samsung screen is very clean and almost homogene!)

Even worse, the TV was dirty when I unpacked it, black finger smudges on the rear, finger smudges stainless steel bezel, 3 spots in the coating. Some crater like holes in the coating of the screen en two dead pixels.

I also tested the Smart TV option, it is sluggish, the icons are animated, but show up with hickups, why oh why is this all so bad...

I repacked the TV and will return it tomorrow.

I really don't understand that a € 3000,- costing TV is worse than a Samsung TV that costs half!

zlatko
10-09-2012, 07:00 PM
@GuiltyNL
I am sorry to hear your experience. If your TV is not a single faulty one(which I doubt regarding my/our experience with 2011 9 series) Philips is doing a real bad job in solving issues and keeping premium customers. And the lack of official statement on DSE issue(be it even a denial) is not good for the reputation of Philips as reliable and top quality brand. In this "connected world" environment we live in this can play them a bad joke. People are more and more using internet sources/reviews when making their decision what to buy and mass issues like DSE can't stay hidden.

GuiltyNL
10-09-2012, 07:06 PM
Hi Zlatko,

I doubt this is a single faulty one, the problems are the same as the previous version, only they are worse.

I had the Philips side by side with my temporarily Samsung 6500 series TV. The Samsung is more clear, better color, sharper letters / fonts and almost homogene screen.

What I don't understand is why some people don't see the DSE problems on their screens. They are not blind are they?

zlatko
10-09-2012, 07:52 PM
@GuiltyNL
I also doubt yours is a separate case, but as we have yet to see more than 1 9707 it is a possible.
So far I haven't see a 9706/9606 screen without DSE. Why some people don't see it - may be they just think it is normal, or some owners pretend it doesn't exist on their screen as they don't want to admit they have a bought a 3000 euro TV set with such a fault :)
Otherwise I am very happy with the PQ of 9606 - it is really amazing combined with Ambilight.

GuiltyNL
10-10-2012, 09:04 AM
I understand that you are happy with it, my last screen (9706) was pretty much ok, but that one suffered from this, look at the dark banding in the top and bottom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ajUvhD0HKs&feature=g-upl

zlatko
10-10-2012, 09:25 AM
@GuiltyNL
I am happy EXCEPT for the DSE! And even if it is relatively small on my screen I think it is unacceptable in a TV with such price tag.
I haven't seen the issue on this clip. This is different from DSE which manifests as thin vertical lines on screen

GuiltyNL
10-10-2012, 09:32 AM
And this is how 'clean' they pack their new top line 9707 TV's :

1476147714781479

I'm not joking! My TV was really packed like this. With the smudges and finger prints on it.

zlatko
10-10-2012, 09:46 AM
@GuiltyNL
If this packaging and DSE is common - looks like TPV is compromising quality on premium line.
Anyway - I would easily live with few smudges, than with horrible DSE :)

Manuel
10-10-2012, 10:43 AM
I can't believe it's a brand new Tv......in a closed Box? Or retailer open it?

And this is how 'clean' they pack their new top line 9707 TV's :
...
I'm not joking! My TV was really packed like this. With the smudges and finger prints on it.

Philips
10-10-2012, 02:06 PM
And this is how 'clean' they pack their new top line 9707 TV's :
.....
I'm not joking! My TV was really packed like this. With the smudges and finger prints on it.


Dear GuiltyNL,

Could you please provide the serial number of your TV? It is printed on the rear cover sticker, or can be seen in the CSM menu of the TV (key in 123654 on the rmote control and look at line 1.2).

Regards,
JuAn

GuiltyNL
10-11-2012, 01:12 PM
I can't believe it's a brand new Tv......in a closed Box? Or retailer open it?

100% closed box, single layer of tape on the box. Packaging in the box 100% in tact, all other items in the box sealed (like remote control, manuals etc.)

GuiltyNL
10-11-2012, 01:15 PM
Dear GuiltyNL,

Could you please provide the serial number of your TV? It is printed on the rear cover sticker, or can be seen in the CSM menu of the TV (key in 123654 on the rmote control and look at line 1.2).

Regards,
JuAn

The TV is already packed Juan, and will be returned to the retailer soon. But it is still here in the box, so I made some pictures for you. See attached.

GuiltyNL
10-11-2012, 01:25 PM
And a video, the background supposed to be homogene white, but in fact it isn't. The screen looks cloudy and in the left lower part it is darker and more yellow.

Although it is hard to film (with a phone) it is still well visible on this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM13M7OTl7g

zlatko
10-11-2012, 01:31 PM
@GuiltyNL
It is really hard to judge the amount or presence of DSE if the background is not moving. It is pity it is still there with every iteration of the premium 9 series in past several years.

GuiltyNL
10-11-2012, 01:33 PM
DSE or not, you can see the screen is dirty. My Samsung screen is 100% clean and even.

But indeed it is hard to see on this short video. But you can see the stains on the screen and the uneven brightness.

zlatko
10-11-2012, 01:37 PM
@GuiltyNL
Yes, completely agree with you. This is unacceptable. Philips is hiding its head in the sand. It is good you will get replacement TV set. Please let us know if it will be better in regards of screen homogeneity.

GuiltyNL
10-11-2012, 01:59 PM
The Samsung replacement was service from my dealer. I don't want another Philips TV. It is very sad as we like Amblight alot and also the matte screen is nice. Our 46PFL9706 was repaired twice and swapped once with a new one, but without any luck.

I'm not going to do the same thing again, it is frustrating.

I'm waiting for the new Samsung 9000 series, hopefully with Google TV embedded in it.

zlatko
10-11-2012, 02:05 PM
@GuiltyNL
Ambilight and matte screen is what made me choose 52PFL9606 over Sony 55HX-929! :)
Although HX929 was cheaper and slightly bigger screen.
Watching movie with Ambilight is fantastic!
I wish you good luck whatever TV set you choose mate!
Thank you for sharing your experience with 9607 and 9707 with us! That way more people will be aware when doing their research before purchase.

GuiltyNL
10-11-2012, 02:09 PM
We had Ambilight since 2005, so it is sad we have to say goodbye to it now. :(

zlatko
12-08-2012, 11:53 AM
@Philips mods
As I see you have addressed numerous complains from 6xx7 TV sets owners with official statement HERE (http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7088-47pfl6877t&p=46919#post46919) - can the same be done for DSE on 2011 9 series? I would like to hear from Philips on that matter.

MacGiver
01-20-2013, 02:26 PM
I bought the 46PFL9707S this week...normally no more DSE but there is a DSE visible on football games for instance. To me this issue will never been solved for several reasons:
1- OLED & 4K TV will arrive...OEM wont spend time solving issues on current technologies but put ressources on new ones
2- not sure Philips will remain on the tv business. Joint-venture with TPVision is a first step for me...Philips will focus on other business such as healthcare.

Anyways...I bought it. I beleive it is my last Philips tv unless yhey proove me wrong.

X

zlatko
01-20-2013, 02:32 PM
@MacGiver
I see you posted on AV forums as well.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Philips won't react in any way to our complaints. They say DSE is within specs. I understand it is a general issue in manufacturing, but the way Philips acted in this, left a bitter taste in my mouth. I was not expecting this from a reputable European vendor.
I will think trice before acquiring another Philips TV, and this comes from an owner of 9732, 9603 and 9606 in the past years.
Let wait and see what OLED has to offer in coming years.

MacGiver
01-20-2013, 02:46 PM
@zlatko

What tv do ou have now and in what circumstances do you notice DSE? I have 3 choices:
1- return it and get my €€€ back
2- ask for a swap and croos finger to get a free DSE tv
3- keep it and live with it. I mainly see the issue while watching football games. I do not watch many but when i do it bothers me.

X

zlatko
01-22-2013, 06:43 PM
@MacGiver
I have 52PFL9606. I see DSE as stated: alpine skiing, football and all panning shots over big light colored areas - snow, sky, mist, grass.
If I were you I should go for options 1 or 3. Going exchange route is pain in the ass. And it is not sure you will find a better set in the end.
So either get your money back (and buy Panasonic VT50(if you can live with plasma flicker) or SONY HX950) or live with DSE if you feel you can do it. Otherwise PQ on local dimming Philips TVs is EXCEPTIONAL.

reubels
03-09-2013, 06:29 PM
screenshot
my tv is older and has horizontal lines on component and flickers or strobe effect on HDMI inputs
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_fSwk4r_Q1qWVh3M3l1WmlOa3M/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_fSwk4r_Q1qMTNoYi1WYzdsZWc/edit?usp=sharing

47PFL6704D/F7

scandisk
04-01-2013, 02:49 AM
i think that is because the nature of the LED system do not allow uniformity across the panel, if the panel is LED edge is worst this phenomen , i have some edge problems of uniformity with a LG LED tv of 22 inches, also i have a panasonic plasma display and no flicker effect or uniformity problem, i think philips is just going downhill a long time ago.

zlatko
04-01-2013, 06:05 AM
@scandisk
I don't see the value in your post?!
First - all backlighing allows for uniformity(to human eye). It is only a matter of diffusing the light in the right way. Of course as the panels become extremely thin this task become harder to achieve. What we discuss here is - why Philips is not doing the necessary to keep DSE within some reasonable limits.

Secondly - ALL plasma screens DO flicker, that is the nature of them. You can not get rid of it. This is result of PWM - Pusle Wide Modulation.