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firefox
01-05-2012, 11:42 AM
Dear Philips and customers,

We have started a petition for a working firmware. We bought Philips expecting the best quality on the market.
Screen quality wise, Philips is doing an excellent if not brilliant job.
However on the firmware side things could have been way better.

We expect these expensive devices to function properly and as described !

If you support this cause, please sign the petition that you can find under the following link. Let's give Philips a strong signal !

http://www.change.org/petitions/philips-make-a-working-firmware-and-remove-bugs

To all customers: Support it!
To Philips: Respect your customers!

Thank you


Edit: 74 signatures already ! This is becoming a clear signal!
-Philips, how can we communicate our wishes towards you?-

TechnicsKuzya
01-05-2012, 12:14 PM
Link are posted on the Russian forum (IXBT): http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=62:19443-149#5545

ali54
01-05-2012, 12:39 PM
thanx for that link firefox

yurasek
01-05-2012, 08:17 PM
The idea of the petition is good - I gave my vote. But I think it is not enough informative in the sense that do not specify a list of existing bugs in the latest version of the software. It would be nice to list the bugs with an indication of the TV model, firmware version, as well as to check whether the problem is repeated in the other, then you can place the bugs in order of priority.

firefox
01-05-2012, 08:43 PM
The idea of the petition is good - I gave my vote. But I think it is not enough informative in the sense that do not specify a list of existing bugs in the latest version of the software. It would be nice to list the bugs with an indication of the TV model, firmware version, as well as to check whether the problem is repeated in the other, then you can place the bugs in order of priority.

yurasek, I agree to your point. However I do not think it is the task of a user. There should be a bug submission tool, allowing for philips to see what to prioritize and what not. The main problem here might be that there isn't a way to send out a "bug report" as we can with Pc's.

@Philips, is there a way to get in "dev" mode to supply you guys with the needed data to solve problems more efficient?

yurasek
01-05-2012, 08:54 PM
Philips 52PFL9606K (FW 0.14.93.0)
1. Sometimes the TV switches itself on (rare). TV operates via UPS so that it is not caused by problems with supply.
2. Often disappears image for two seconds (at this time, the screen goes black).
3. Often barely noticeable once the TV is flickering. It takes a matter of seconds, but still noticeable and annoying.
4. Very strange implementation of 3D TV. After switching to 3D mode the TV stretches the image horizontally and at the same time it cuts off the left and right by 16-24 pixels. Why was this done? And of course the terrible ghosting.
5. Constantly straying manually configured time.
6. What a strange implementation of Local dimming: TV tries probably find the black bars top and bottom which often fail darkens these areas.
7. Terrible brakes animation menu.

To be continued ...

It's not even all the bugs that I noticed. I use the TV as a monitor for a HTPC through HDMI and to view analog and digital DVB-C cable television channels.

firefox
01-05-2012, 09:00 PM
@yurasek, this might not be the place to post that :)
Please post it in the forum of the firmware, in this way it's way more useful and centralised for philips.

yurasek
01-05-2012, 09:14 PM
firefox
When a new firmware is always closed the old topic. And the new topic will have to write everything in new ways. The petition should be constructive, that is, showing that must be corrected in the new firmware. Philips can release a new firmware, of whom say that it is better, but it does not mean that all bugs will disappear.

Peter Walker
01-05-2012, 10:48 PM
I use an excellent feedback service for another product and it is an excellent way of giving feedback to engineers and tracking problems. The product I use it for (as a simple customer) is the Livescribe Echo.

Have a look at their implementation to get an idea what is possible:
http://getsatisfaction.com/livescribe

The great thing is that Philips already has a community on that service so all we have to do is start to use it to report problems.
http://getsatisfaction.com/philips

Regards

Peter

firefox
01-05-2012, 10:49 PM
1) I did not create the petition, I am a dsitributor of it.
2) I agree with you on the problems etc, but realise that you only should 'complain' about the bugs that are there with the latest firmware installed. From a philips perspective it has no use following up "old" firmwares. Consider a new firmware version the fix of old problems, and sadly the introduction of others. It is these 'other' problems we should focus on and the proper development of the firmware.
So, again, it has no use posting your problems in this threath. Update the firmware & post your problems in the appropiate threath please, this will help philips the most (they aren't the enemy ;) , they just need to woked up ! )

firefox
01-05-2012, 10:54 PM
I use an excellent feedback service for another product and it is an excellent way of giving feedback to engineers and tracking problems. The product I use it for (as a simple customer) is the Livescribe Echo.

Have a look at their implementation to get an idea what is possible:
http://getsatisfaction.com/livescribe

The great thing is that Philips already has a community on that service so all we have to do is start to use it to report problems.
http://getsatisfaction.com/philips

Regards

Peter

Excellent platform ! However, it still does not substitute a propper bug reporting platform such as the ones seen in the open source community. Now everyone reports their problems in an unstructered way, making it harder for philips to help us. Philips should help both us and itself in reporting bugs/problems in a structured way on the internet.
Besides, moving the already existing, and seemlingly aware public towards a website out of hands/eyes of philips may be inefficient (only 1 employee is checking out the philips page)

ruudvdl
01-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Some kind of moderated bugtracker may be a good idea. That would prevent a swamp of bug tickets but it would let users get very involved with the products. Users could submit bugs and Philips could accept them, assign priority, allow for comments of others with the same problem.

Companies are however very hesitant about things like this, because it exposes their products' vulnerabilities to the web and to potential new customers who might hesitate to buy products if they read about these bugs.

However I think most (not all) consumers are not stupid, and will realise that every product has bugs, especially products as complex as Philips tv's. Seeing an active online community, to me, is a good thing. It means the manufacturer takes the consumer seriously and admits that mistakes (only human) are made, and puts effort in fixing those mistakes with the help of the consumer.

Peter Walker
01-06-2012, 10:19 AM
When I was considering buying a TV, the choice was between LG and Philips, as I wanted a passive 3D-TV. It is well known that such devices can have bugs, in my opinion it was how well such bugs are fixed which is important. I looked at the user posts in the LG and this Philips forum and discovered the following:

In the LG forum, it was full of comments by users complaining about LG not fixing bugs and withholding features like USB recording for Sat-TV. There was a lot of bad feeling there.

In the Philips forum, sure bugs were being discussed, but there was also an impression that Philips were taking the bugs seriously and releasing firmware updates often to fix them. That I found to be very positive and is one of the main reasons I bought a Philips TV even though I originally favoured LG.

The TV I have does still have bugs and I am reporting them here in the hope that Philips engineers are reading these reports and fixing them with time. The more I see Philips responding to and fixing reported bugs, the more I gain trust in the Philips brand. That is why an organised reporting system with feedback from Philips is a good idea. All technical devices can have bugs and that is well known. It improves trust if these bugs are seen to be addressed in a reasonable time.

firefox
01-06-2012, 10:49 AM
@Peter Walker, I am glad to hear such a thing ! It is true, Philips does bring out frequent firmware releases, especially considering the complexity of such software. Also I am very aware that this forum in general is being very constructive and helpful, which is an advantage for Philips that might be underestimated.

Maybe we should change the goals/connonation of the petition. Sadly I can not reformulate the one that is posted above since it has been created by an other user.

Thank you for your constructive comment !

hristoslav2
01-06-2012, 04:19 PM
Link are posted on the Bulgarian forum (SETCOMBG.COM):
http://forum.setcombg.com/index.php/topic,48336.new.html#new

screamer
01-08-2012, 01:47 PM
Tanks firefox!
You're speaking out of my heart!

firefox
01-08-2012, 02:06 PM
Edit: It has become clear that there is a clear demand for an organised bug report system.
The forum is a great way to communicate thoughts towards developer and customer services, yet it does not provide an organised way of creating a per firmware bug report. If such a system would be available, customers would be able to easily report & see if their bug is already out in the system (hence avoiding duplicates).

Take a look @ the bug system created by the open source community : Bugzilla. Used here : http://bugs.winehq.org/ . MAybe take a look, and ventilate your thoughts ?

meme80
01-10-2012, 02:55 PM
Done. Thanks for your petition.

Peter Walker
01-10-2012, 05:25 PM
Take a look @ the bug system created by the open source community : Bugzilla. Used here : http://bugs.winehq.org/ . MAybe take a look, and ventilate your thoughts ?

Hi firefox,
I had a look at that system as you requested. While it is probably great for software developers, that system is way to complex and confusing for Joe Public and they would be frightened away from it.

This forum works reasonably well and I see the getsatisfaction system as inbetween the two - more organized for bug reporting, yet not so complex and confusing to frighten people away.

At the end of the day, whatever system is used needs to be a system where the engineers fixing the bugs are going to look. At the moment, that is this forum so any other system can only be used if the technicians are prepared to go with us. Perhaps someone from the Philips engineering staff could tell us which system they would prefer.

My suggestion is that we could start reporting bugs both here and in the Philips getsatisfaction system in order to test how well such a system is accepted by all.

Regards

Peter

matthias
01-11-2012, 11:41 AM
Hi firefox,

I think there are several issues.
First of all, I agree the idea of having an organized way to report bugs would be really helpful in general.

When I first came to this forum, it was really complicated to find if someone had similar issues, as they were hidden in a number of (often mistitled) threads.
The threads reporting bugs are often titled along the way "my TV doesn't work", and the description is often too vague to actually reproduce it,
especially these "my TV reboots occasionally" bugs.

Peter is right, that the average user will probably not be able to use such a system, but I think this is good as this keeps out the average complain-reports.

It's really difficult (for us, but also the developers) to identify reported bugs here. Many bugs are distributed over several threads or collected in one post. If they are sorted (and allowed to be moderated and moved by several people), this might actually be helpful.

But before we start such a thing, I think we really have to get someone from inside Philips in closer. Because right now, we don't even know who&where the developers are (at Philips or Outsourced) and whether they don't care because they delivered and it's finished, or because they don't have time to reproduce and fix the bug.

Also, my guess is there are many more groups involved than we see right now - I'm not sure the guys for USB/Streaming, Media Player, EPG, NetTV, etc. all sit in the same room/building), and I we don't know if any of these guys are actually _interested_ in having such a thing with a tighter connection to customers. This is what only someone from Philips can comment on and has to push internally.

I think a more thorough moderation might help, but is of course a lot of work for the moderators.
Toengel tried this by collecting the bugs and feature requests in a single thread for the 2010 TVs, which in my opinion is very good approach for a forum.
Stil, I don't know how many of these issues have actually been considered and how many of the devlopers are actually aware of this list.
Also, many of these points are still unsolved for the 2011 TVs.

This basically comes back to the why-question. To find a solution, that is accepted by the developers, this must be solved. But this is probably not
something that Philips will post on their forum ;-)

If they need more accurate bug reports, or a better list, or a different bug tracking system that allows outsiders to contribute, this must involve people from inside Philips to be accepted.
@Firefox: if you are willing to set this tracker up, you should probably could try to talk with Thomas or one of the other Philips moderators in private to find out more, but this requires Philips to trust your confidence ;-)
Maybe Toengel can help?

I also hate to see Philips struggle heavily here, but if the problem is man-power, I don't know if there's a (realistic) way for us to contribute...

BR,
Matthias

tl;dr:
- What really helps the developers at Philips? find out through personal contact (moderators?) Does an ordered way of bug reports help?
- Is the quality of bug reports on this forum good enough, or do we need to be more specific in giving explanations on how to reproduce them reliably?

matthias
01-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Just had a look at bugzilla. It looks fine for me, but I didn't create an account.
I also like the sourceforge bug tracker - maybe more people are already familiar with that one.

Is there something in the SF usage guidelines that forbids just creating a project to use their bugtracking system, without an actual opensource project?

Or maybe we can get the SF/jointspace folks to add bug&feature request trackers for TV-Software, with categories like NetTV, Streaming&Network, UI, 3D, USB-Recording, etc. (ie. the subforum topis) and add the users who want to contribute?

turanga
01-13-2012, 10:00 AM
Only 4 signs left to fill up 100!!

turanga
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
Petition reached 100 signs.

panel
01-16-2012, 01:53 PM
turunga good point with the petition.Taking under consideration that only small percentage of users actually do something about bugs I believe philips should take this seriously.
Honestly if situation won't change in near future I'll probably buy new TV, because current software usability is quite poor.

I agree with @matthias. There is big mess on the forum - unified bug tracker would be great add on.
JIRA is nice bug tracker and has nice feature - voting for the issue. So the developer would now what is the most wanted feature/bug fix.

Regardless of the bug tracker choice is would be great idea.

matthias
01-16-2012, 02:49 PM
About the petition: I don't support it, because I'm sure Philips is quite aware that the firmware is "problematic". I think "is useless" is an exaggeration, a firmware "without bugs" is unrealistic and these sort of generic statements will most probably not help the cause and will likely put users in the corner of "I will never again buy any Philips device because my Philips TV does not have green dots on the frame, while my Samsung had some in the past."

However, I like the idea of a (managed) bug&feature tracker with exact descriptions on how to (reliably and quickly) reproduce a bug, including links to sample files, details on the used hardware/software etc.
Maybe a macro recorder/player in combination with a Jointspace app will help here.

About Jira: Can we use it for free? And unless you already have it working on a server of yours and can add a Philips TV page, I'd rather use an available system, such as Sourceforge/Google Code/Github/... without the need for my own server.

Sourceforge can only edit bug status/title and add new comments - no editing text and comments after they were posted.
To keep the list clean, I think we need something like this.
Anyone know if this is possible with one of the other hosted bug trackers?

panel
01-16-2012, 03:28 PM
About the petition: I don't support it, because I'm sure Philips is quite aware that the firmware is "problematic". I think "is useless" is an exaggeration, a firmware "without bugs" is unrealistic and these sort of generic statements will most probably not help the cause and will likely put users in the corner of "I will never again buy any Philips device because my Philips TV does not have green dots on the frame, while my Samsung had some in the past."
Green dots are one think, mabye even imaginary ;)
The point is that when you are buyig the device you you have some requirements or I rather say habits because there are some unwritten usability/industry standards ex. all laptops must have wi-fi and all video player should have certain features like ability to play all popular video formats and ability to select scene/go to custom time of the movie...



However, I like the idea of a (managed) bug&feature tracker with exact descriptions on how to (reliably and quickly) reproduce a bug, including links to sample files, details on the used hardware/software etc.
Maybe a macro recorder/player in combination with a Jointspace app will help here.

About Jira: Can we use it for free? And unless you already have it working on a server of yours and can add a Philips TV page, I'd rather use an available system, such as Sourceforge/Google Code/Github/... without the need for my own server.

Unfortunately JIRA isn't free, but don't you think that philips itself should handle this?



Sourceforge can only edit bug status/title and add new comments - no editing text and comments after they were posted.
To keep the list clean, I think we need something like this.
Anyone know if this is possible with one of the other hosted bug trackers?
Aren't Sourceforge/Github etc. for open source projects? Not sure if we can use them like this.

smart
01-16-2012, 04:04 PM
I was reading through the posts of this thread and was asking me what is its purpose?

Some want a public defect/bug tracking system allowing the end-users to directly contact developers. The first post wants the users to vote for a "better" firmware. Which makes me ask: "What is a better firmware?".

Better includes everything: bug fixing, new features, changing existing features or everything else what one can imagine. So why not vote for it?
Even Philips can say: "Yes, we will provide a better firmware". And they are right. They provide new firmwares, which are "better". For my 2010 TV is was the case several times. Just have a look at the release log.
But after every update, you will find people whose expectations are not met.
So what does this thread want to say?


If there are many bugs, which won't be solved, contact the dealer as long as you have guarantee. This is the most effective way to increase pressure on the bug fixing from your side.

But I think as long as Philips is actively moderating, they can fix the problems which are posted here and improve products as much as they want.

matthias
01-16-2012, 04:42 PM
I was reading through the posts of this thread and was asking me what is its purpose?
Some want a public defect/bug tracking system allowing the end-users to directly contact developers. The first post wants the users to vote for a "better" firmware. Which makes me ask: "What is a better firmware?".


You're right - there are two things mixed here. Maybe a moderator can split this in two threads.

I agree - Philips _is improving the firmware, so there's no difference between the petition and a simple new thread here.



If there are many bugs, which won't be solved, contact the dealer as long as you have guarantee. This is the most effective way to increase pressure on the bug fixing from your side.

But I think as long as Philips is actively moderating, they can fix the problems which are posted here and improve products as much as they want.


Yes, they can and they do, and they do this also with a priority that makes sense imo (e.g. start with sound drops, etc).

The thing is there are still a number of issues open, which is probably a manpower issue at Philips.

I think, one of the things we as users can actually improve is the quality of the bug reports.
A few bugs occur only in specific conditions and the problem descriptions here are not sufficient to reproduce them.

There are a lot of different threads talking about the same issue, and also "all-in" threads that talk on several issues.
This makes it difficult to keep track of the different "environments" these bugs occur.
This could be solved by a more strict moderation by Philips, but this is again a manpower issue

So the advantage of having "our own" bug tracker is basically:
- not Philips, but users handle them, so the time-consuming sorting of bugs is offloaded from Thomas et al
- new users have a quick way of actually finding out if a bug has been reported already (without the need to find out that Toengel's 2010 list is actually the collection they were looking for ;-)
- users can provide their specific way to reproduce a certain bug. By being moderated, this does not get lost in the currently many "I'm just unhappy/disappointed/angry/..." posts inbetween these threads.

Basically, this does not need to be a bug tracker. A strictly moderated subforum specifically for Bugs, Requests, etc. with one thread per bug is probably fine. This could also be done by giving a few of the users moderator status, but I'm not sure if the Philips guys want/may do that.

matthias
01-16-2012, 04:45 PM
Unfortunately JIRA isn't free, but don't you think that philips itself should handle this?

Well, I think the problem is manpower. If they had enough resources, this would not be necessary. I think, the main advantage of having this is to allow users to take care of managing this. Doesn't need to be a bug tracker - could even be a forum.



Aren't Sourceforge/Github etc. for open source projects? Not sure if we can use them like this.
Not sure either. Maybe if it's part of the jointspace project?

kakas
01-18-2012, 09:06 PM
Hi! I'll share some annoying things in my 32PFL3606H/58 2.20 firmware. This kind of software makes the usage of the TV hard even for someone who has many years experience in multimedia technology due to its illogicalness. There are NO settings in the menu which could solve these.

- When I switch to a digital channel there isn't a programme information panel which is shown on most set top boxes. I have to enter to Options -> What's on and then I can check the current and the next programme. That's really uncomfortable!
- EPG doesn't show up in transparent mode so while I'm checking out the guide the TV programme stops and the table has a silent black background.
- When switching to an unsubscribed channel, Conax Conditional Access window keeps appearing with the message 'No Access' making me almost unable to select another channel from the list as this window comes up again and again despite of closing it. Okay, I should remove unsubscribed channels from the list but this is not a real solution.
- Channel grid is VERY annoying! Why can't Philips make a normal channel list where one can select a channel by moving up and down? Or at least to do this grid normally, I mean when I reach the end of a row and want to step right, the cursor wouldn't go to the next page, rather the next row. The way this is designed is completely illogical.
- Some USB devices such as external hard drives, digital cameras and card readers aren't recognized.
- Sleep timer can only be accessed through the menu (Home -> Settings -> TV settings -> Preferences -> Sleep timer). Why did they make it so hard to find? :confused: Other remote controllers DO have a Sleep button, why Philips ones don't? For example, the blue selector button could do it, or at least they could create a Sleep timer submenu in Options...
- Hungarian translation is awful! It's full of mistakes.

Don't misunderstand, I like Philips products but this firmware really sucks. I think since devices have the option of software update, manufacturers feel free to release their products with buggy, incomplete firmware.
I've just written my opinion, but I hardly believe that any changes would be done. Making senseless petitions and fighting against bad firmware here is like talking to a brickwall. But hope dies last :)

smart
01-19-2012, 06:34 AM
...
- Channel grid is VERY annoying! Why can't Philips make a normal channel list where one can select a channel by moving up and down? Or at least to do this grid normally, I mean when I reach the end of a row and want to step right, the cursor wouldn't go to the next page, rather the next row. The way this is designed is completely illogical.
...

I have to disagree completely with your opinion. The channel grid is not illogical. I think it is very logical and practical. I like the channel grid and I'm faster in choosing from the channel grid than with a "normal" channel list.
When pressing right on the outer right column, I expect the next page to be loaded.
I would say it is illogical to go to the beginning of the bottom row.

The channel grid is one reason for me to buy a Philips TV. I prefer that kind of input.

smart
01-19-2012, 06:42 AM
...
The thing is there are still a number of issues open, which is probably a manpower issue at Philips.
...


Right, there are a number of issues open. I also know some, I want to have solved. If there is a clear issues, it should be solved.

But this thread is much to generic. It should be titled like "Petition for firmware solving remaining bugs". Then it would be adress, what you meant before. "Petition for better firmware" can be everything. There are users, who don't like the animations or the channel grid or similar. So those users would also vote and expect this to be changed. Those might think it is a better firmware, if you change that. But there are others who like that kind of user interaction and basically the TV is designed to behave like that.

Hope it got clear, what I mean...

panel
01-19-2012, 06:45 AM
Honestly is some one is writing here is only because he wants to say something about frimware ;)
Reading may posts you can see that generally people want fixes, improvements to for me 'Petition for better firmware' is quite obvious (I know why I came to this forum and others seems to have similar problems)

aleperer
01-27-2012, 02:43 PM
...for me 'Petition for better firmware' is quite obvious...
I agree!

Each partecipation to the petition could includes a "reason" (a description of our "claim").

Good job!

Best regards.

turanga
03-09-2012, 02:35 PM
Only 7 signs left to fill up 200!!

tiomiguel
03-11-2012, 08:58 PM
I am very sad because OPTICAL OUTPUT from my 42PFL7606K outputs multichannel signal, not accepted by my stereo high-end system.

Other brands like LG, SAMSUNG etc. allow choose between PCM and muttichannel in optical output.

I believed PHILIPS had better implementation than others, but I have seen this is not ture.

My TV SHUTS DOWN RANDOMLY...

I am waiting for a firmware upgrade for chhosing between PCM and MULTICHANNEL... ot it will be my LAST PHILIPS TV

Toengel
03-12-2012, 07:56 AM
Hi,

you can choose between PCM and Multichannel in the TV Station setup - somewhere you can choose between Advanced (DD) and Standard (Stereo).

Toengel@Alex

Philips - Thomas
03-12-2012, 08:46 AM
Hi,

To change the audio output in PCM or multichannel please use the options explained below:

TV HOME > Setup > Channel settings > Language > Preferred audio format

Option 1: Standard = PCM
Option 2: Advanced = multi channel

You can also choose the audio language respectively the audio format while watching TV:

Press OPTION > Audio Language > Choose audio format from the list

Note: The listed options depend from the broadcasted audio content.

Regards
Thomas

tiomiguel
03-12-2012, 08:48 AM
If only multichannel is avaible, it does NOT output PCM, as other brands DO

TV only bypass digital signal...

turanga
03-12-2012, 12:04 PM
200 signs reached!!!

Manuel
03-12-2012, 09:25 PM
Some one from Philips that do the software and hardware...

http://members.chello.nl/r.kats/html/romkes_work.htm