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PhilipsUser666666
03-04-2012, 10:58 PM
Hello, I have bought a 50PFL7956K and it shows extreme ghosting effects in 3D movies (3D Blu-Ray, 3D Youtube movies, test patterns, 2D to 3D Simulation). I have tried to use several distances (1-4m; normal distance is 3m) and installed all software updates. What is the problem with my TV? The effect ist very strong so that I get headache, absolutely unacceptable. I took a lot of pictures (every picture is only taken through one side L/R of the 3D glasses), but the pictures can not show the effect very good. In reality it is even stronger.
If somebody wants to take part in a German discussion about that problem, please visit http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-152-9525.html

Sample pictures:
906907908909910911

EDIT:
Hi, I had a chat with a german Philips technican (R. Meyer). He said: Ok also laut ihren Fotos ist es doch sehr extrem (translation: Ok, regarding your pics the effect is very extreme).
So, the 3D Feature doesn't work correct. The TV is broken. I will exchange it.

EDIT 2 (2012-03-27):
Unbelievable! I have sent the TV back to Amazon and they reimbursement me the money, so that I could by a new 50PFL7956K. Believe it or not the new TV has absolutely NO ghosting!! OK, currently I only tried only 2D-to-3D conversion, one 3D Blu-Ray and 3D test patterns. At the next weekend I will try other 3D sources.
OK, here is my recommandation: if you have ghosting on your 50PFL7956K don't accept it! It must be a technical failure. Exchange your TV and enjoy 3D movies without ghosting/crosstalk.

petasis
03-05-2012, 08:33 PM
If I remember correctly, this is a passive 3D tv, which means that it offers the least crosstalk in 3D technology can offer. The fact that you get a headache is not relevant to the performance of the TV in my opinion. What is sold as 3D from studios is not 3D in the sense the human brain is accustomed to. Instead is a pseudo-3D, that the brain has difficulties interpreting, so watching 3D anywhere is tiresome, and causes headaches.

Actually, this Tv uses the same technology that is used in cinemas. Have you ever tried to see a 3D movie in the cinema? Did you also got a headache?
(I did, and I stopped seeing 3D completely)

I don't have an advice, other than trying to reduce the brightness of your TV (as this will make crosstalk less visible).

I don't think that there is anything that can be done to improve this...

PhilipsUser666666
03-05-2012, 09:33 PM
Hi Petasis, normally (in cinema and watching TV without crosstalk) I get no headache. It is absolute an effect of ghosting/crosstalk. The effects are so strong that I can take photos of it (see the samples). Thats not correct I think. The TV must be broken from the beginning on. That is my opinion.
Here is another sample (MP4 File, 3D, played from an USB-Stick via the TV-USB):
912

Toengel
03-06-2012, 07:56 AM
Hi,

which source did you test? Can you test a Blu-ray such as Sammy's?

Toengel@Alex

bluevoice
03-06-2012, 08:05 AM
Hi Petasis, normally (in cinema and watching TV without crosstalk) I get no headache. It is absolute an effect of ghosting/crosstalk. The effects are so strong that I can take photos of it (see the samples). Thats not correct I think. The TV must be broken from the beginning on. That is my opinion.
Here is another sample (MP4 File, 3D, played from an USB-Stick via the TV-USB):
912

I also have the Philips Cinema Gold and I experience no crosstalk at all. 3D viewing is an absolute delight on this TV. Crosstalk also depends on the source material. I see you've posted some screenshots from Sammy and the Secret passage, this movie is known to have some crosstalk now and then. It's the source material not the tv. Do you also experience crosstalk when you watch 3D Blurays like Avatar and Tron Legacy? Those are 2 of the best 3D movies on Bluray and I see no crosstalk at all. I also experienced that if you download 3D movies from the internet you could also see some crosstalk because of the conversion.

PhilipsUser666666
03-06-2012, 11:03 AM
Hi,

which source did you test? Can you test a Blu-ray such as Sammy's?

Toengel@Alex

Three of the sample pictures are from Sammys. The problem is, that I (and friends) have never (!) seen a 3D source on this TV without ghosting.
-Blu-Ray (Player = Philips HTS9221/12):Sammy, Henry&Julie, Sanctum, Thor, Tron, etc.
-USB (TV): Test pattern (e.g. Side-by-side pictures from Burosch), movie files downloaded from the internet
-USB (Player): Test pattern (e.g. Side-by-side pictures from Burosch), movie files downloaded from the internet
-NetTV (3D movies from the Youtube app)
-3D movies from the regular TV program (ARTE Themenabende)
-2D to 3D conversion (regular TV program and regular Blu-Rays)

PhilipsUser666666
03-06-2012, 11:08 AM
Do you also experience crosstalk when you watch 3D Blurays like Avatar and Tron Legacy? Those are 2 of the best 3D movies on Bluray and I see no crosstalk at all.
Tron Legacy has also crosstalk (not so strong but almost the whole 3D scenes). I haven't try Avatar but a lot of other sources:
-Blu-Ray:Sammy, Henry&Julie, Sanctum, Thor, Tron, Resident Evil, etc.
-USB (TV&Player): Test pattern, movie files downloaded from the internet
-NetTV (3D movies from the Youtube app)
-3D movies from the regular TV program
-2D to 3D conversion (regular TV program and regular Blu-Rays)

bluevoice
03-06-2012, 11:29 AM
Tron Legacy has also crosstalk (not so strong but almost the whole 3D scenes). I haven't try Avatar but a lot of other sources:
-Blu-Ray:Sammy, Henry&Julie, Sanctum, Thor, Tron, Resident Evil, etc.
-USB (TV&Player): Test pattern, movie files downloaded from the internet
-NetTV (3D movies from the Youtube app)
-3D movies from the regular TV program
-2D to 3D conversion (regular TV program and regular Blu-Rays)

What is your watching angle? If I stand up than I also see a lot of ghosting, but when my sight is in line with the TV (sitting on a couch) there's no ghosting at all (besides if the source is flawed).

PhilipsUser666666
03-06-2012, 11:54 AM
I have tried every distance from 1-4m an every realistic angle (horicontal, vertical). The best position is my "regeluar sofa position" (distance 3m, eyes in the middle horicontal, eyes on the middle vertical). But the crosstalk never disappears, it only moves from the side to the middle (if I change distances or angles). And crosstalk in the center of a movie make it absolute unwatchable! Crosstalk on the sides (left stronger than right) is also unacceptable for a 2200 EUR TV but the movies are mostly watchable (with a bit headache at the end).
I think I have to send the TV back to Amazon and claim it. 3D is not so important for me, but for that price I want to have a TV which is technical OK.

bluevoice
03-06-2012, 12:21 PM
I have tried every distance from 1-4m an every realistic angle (horicontal, vertical). The best position is my "regeluar sofa position" (distance 3m, eyes in the middle horicontal, eyes on the middle vertical). But the crosstalk never disappears, it only moves from the side to the middle (if I change distances or angles). And crosstalk in the center of a movie make it absolute unwatchable! Crosstalk on the sides (left stronger than right) is also unacceptable for a 2200 EUR TV but the movies are mostly watchable (with a bit headache at the end).
I think I have to send the TV back to Amazon and claim it. 3D is not so important for me, but for that price I want to have a TV which is technical OK.

Seems that something is wrong with your tv, on my Philips Cinema Gold, 3D is really a pleasure to watch. Maybe you should exchange it.

PhilipsUser666666
03-06-2012, 12:44 PM
Seems that something is wrong with your tv, on my Philips Cinema Gold, 3D is really a pleasure to watch. Maybe you should exchange it.
It is absolutely dissapointing that the TV has so much crosstalk, because in conclusion it is a good TV. But you are right! I should exchange it.
It was very important for me to know If other users have the same problem, but now I can be sure. Something is wrong with only my TV.
Thank you for help!

bluevoice
03-06-2012, 12:45 PM
You're welcome, please let us know if your exchange tv is ok, when you get it.

petasis
03-06-2012, 01:16 PM
You will not find a TV that does not have cross-talk in 3D. The internet is full of screenshots from various TVs, and none of them has a perfect 3D image.

The passive TVs (like the one you have) exhibit more stable 3D images, if you don't mind the lower vertical resolution. The only problem is that you must find the "sweet spot" (you have to be at 0 degrees from the panel perpendicular axis - that means you have to face the panel), and find the right distance from your tv, that minimizes crosstalk.

Since you have tried all these, and you want to change your tv, I would suggest to check an active 3D at a store. Don't try another passive 3D TV, as they all have the same panels from LG (LG holds the patents on passive 3D). So, expect all of them to have similar performance regarding 3D.

PhilipsUser666666
03-06-2012, 04:08 PM
You will not find a TV that does not have cross-talk in 3D. The internet is full of screenshots from various TVs, and none of them has a perfect 3D image.
I agree with you. But I have seen a lot of TVs in the last months (including passive 3D TVs) and no one showed the effect I could see on my TV. In particular it is not acceptable that my TV showed strong crosstalk at both sides in every 3D movie or picture.



Don't try another passive 3D TV, as they all have the same panels from LG (LG holds the patents on passive 3D). So, expect all of them to have similar performance regarding 3D.
Interesting information. I didn't know that all passive panels are from LG.

petasis
03-06-2012, 06:43 PM
Yes they are. All brands that make passive 3D TV, have to use an LG panel for this.
Philips, LG (obviously), Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, all have LG panels in their passive 3D models. Samsung does not (yet) offer passive 3D TVs.

Meddyb
03-07-2012, 11:59 AM
Philips user66666,

I have that screen and 3d is awesome, and active 3d gives me headache, so i can assure you that the 3d is great.

It may seems stupid but, i may have a solution for,you.
When launching a 3d movies go into the 3d menu and select side by side instead of inversed side by side. You may have configured inversed side by side from beginning and it might have saved it as your original choice=====> really hope this is the solution for you

Another thing, do you also have flashing ambilight problems when watching 3d movies or games?

PhilipsUser666666
03-07-2012, 06:12 PM
Philips user66666,
I have that screen and 3d is awesome, and active 3d gives me headache, so i can assure you that the 3d is great.

That is good for you and bad for me :-) I am sure, my TV is a real lemon. Broken from the beginning on regarding the 3D technic.



It may seems stupid but, i may have a solution for,you.
When launching a 3d movies go into the 3d menu and select side by side instead of inversed side by side. You may have configured inversed side by side from beginning and it might have saved it as your original choice=====> really hope this is the solution for you
Thanks for the advice, but it doesn't work.


Another thing, do you also have flashing ambilight problems when watching 3d movies or games?
No, after upgrading the firmware that problem was gone (but I can't remeber what firmware version).

alican
03-07-2012, 06:48 PM
although some of that pics seems to have perfectly normal crosstalk the others have enough crosstalk to screw up your 3D experience. But the weird part is that i have the same tv but he H model and i virtually never suffer from crosstalk can it be a problem with the particular tv that you own? Did philips exchanged it?

PhilipsUser666666
03-07-2012, 07:05 PM
Hi, I had a chat with a german Philips technican (R. Meyer) --> Ok also laut ihren Fotos ist es doch sehr extrem (translation: Ok, regarding your pics the effect is very extreme).
I will contact Amazon to exchange it.

petasis
03-07-2012, 09:34 PM
I would suggest to try to find a shop that has this model in display, and test its 3D capabilities (or another passive 3D model from Philips). It is a good idea to find out whether you are more sensitive to 3D corss-talk, and perhaps decide on a slight model change, since you are exchanging your TV.

Because it will be a pity if a new Tv arrives, and you see again the same problems. And then it may be more difficult to change it for a second time...

Just an idea... :)

PhilipsUser666666
03-07-2012, 09:58 PM
It is a good idea to find out whether you are more sensitive to 3D corss-talk, ...
You are right, some persons are sensitive to 3D movies. But my wife, my friends and the digital camera :-) can see the crosstalk effects. I have seen the 42PFL7606K in a shop with the same passive 3D technic and I couldn't see crosstalk.
I think the Philps technican is right. The crosstalk effects on my TV are to strong.

petasis
03-08-2012, 10:05 AM
The technology behind passive 3D is so simple, that I cannot find a reason TVs of the same model to exhibit different cross-talk. This is why I try to alarm you that the replacement may behave exactly as the one you already have.

But if you have verified that another TV of the same model, has fewer cross-talk when playing the same material, on the same scenes, then there is no other conclusion than that there is something wrong with your TV.
In this case, replacement will probably help.

V4Mp
03-08-2012, 09:15 PM
I have ghosting, too!
It is also if I use the Two Player Option for games. I can see the picture of the other player!
And with 3D movies, too. I can see it very clear, if the movie have fast movements.

alican
03-09-2012, 07:14 PM
I bought the dual gaming glasses like a week ago and tested with a friend. And I suffered from a major crosstalk problem. In darker areas i could only see a total blur caused by two overlapping images. When in a brighter place it is relatively better but i can still see my friends character. Does anybody suffer from the same issue? I have a 50pfl7956h cinema gold tv.

PhilipsUser666666
03-09-2012, 08:16 PM
@alican and V4Mp
is it possible that you take pictures of the crosstalk effects. Then we can decide if the effect is acceptable for the passive technology or to strong.

V4Mp
03-14-2012, 03:10 PM
Ok, here are two pictures.
I hope you can see enough. It is a two player split top and bottom.
And I have played before, but with a firmware/software lower the 14.093 and haven't had any problem. Since 14.093 I see the second screen (crosstalk?). And for me it has become more worse with the 14 096 version as befor.

And yes, I have the correct glasses. The pictures are made with glasses for player 2, but player 1 is just the same.

http://www.abload.de/thumb/img_1359grolvj33.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_1359grolvj33.jpg)

http://www.abload.de/thumb/img_1366gro85k6z.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=img_1366gro85k6z.jpg)

PhilipsUser666666
03-15-2012, 09:06 PM
I think the crosstalk effect is strong. But some sources, some Blu-Rays, some movies have crosstalk effects caused by themselves. So if you have such effects on every 3D source, your TV doesn't work correct. If only a couple of sources (like only the game you have) have such effects, the source could be the problem.

V4Mp
03-16-2012, 10:00 PM
It is with every game.
And 3d with every br.
I have bought new hdmi cabel, but no changes.

PhilipsUser666666
03-27-2012, 08:07 PM
Unbelievable! I have sent the TV back to Amazon and they reimbursement me the money, so that I could by a new 50PFL7956K. Believe it or not the new TV has absolutely NO ghosting!! OK, currently I only tried only 2D-to-3D conversion, one 3D Blu-Ray and 3D test patterns. At the next weekend I will try other 3D sources.
OK, here is my recommandation: if you have ghosting on your 50PFL7956K don't accept it! It must be a technical failure. Exchange your TV and enjoy 3D movies without ghosting/crosstalk.

a_Tom
03-28-2012, 07:29 AM
so amazon as a retailer does gave you your money back, thats good to see but i dont understand the conclusion that this has to be a technical failure...
amazon is not a technical support.
if they would give you your money back on a bought screwdriver, would you call them also do-it-yourself experts?

but anyway, good to see that you have fun now with your tv

V4Mp
03-28-2012, 02:20 PM
What firmware is on the tv? Maybe a old one? Because with old FW I didn't have ghosting, only above 14.093

PhilipsUser666666
03-28-2012, 07:51 PM
Hi V4Mp, I'm not sure but I think it was a firmware with the number 38 at the end installed (maybe 14.038) --> no ghosting. But I updated directly to 14.080 (Backup on my USB stick) --> no ghosting. Two hours later I updated to 14.096 (newest download) --> no ghosting.

Jeroen87
03-30-2012, 12:54 PM
Congratulations on your successful exchange, and I hope that you will have many years of 3D pleasure with this unique 3D TV. A good choice !

If somebody else has problems with verifying the working of passive 3D, here is a little experiment you can do: hold the 3D glasses directly against the display and look at the line structure. One glass should show only the even lines, the other glass only the odd lines, and with black lines in-between. Then at least you know that most parts are working correctly.

Be aware that "easy 3D" (or "passive 3D") has a somewhat limited vertical viewing angle. Sony makes lame jokes about it in the shops, but they will be introducing passive 3D too. If your TV is positioned normally, not e.g. very high on the wall, then this should not be a problem for you. In the shop you may have to sit down to put the TV on eye level to appreciate the 3D quality.

Passive 3D is implemented on the display panel (by means of a "film patterned retarder), it is not affected by signal processing, therefore you should not expect it to improve with a firmware update. It is also independent of temperature.

Enjoy, -- Jeroen