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gstan80
08-17-2012, 08:32 AM
Hello guys, - Deutsch Übersetzung von Google in der zweiten Hälfte dieses Posting. / German translation from Google in the second half of this posting.

I am writing here from Sweden as so far is the only forum talking about the 6 series from Philips.
I will tell you my story with the Philips 47PFL6877T model that I bought from ElGiganten for about 1500 Euro.

It is very important for you to know that I have now the 3rd tv of such model after changing the first two and still have problems.

1st model.

a. After buying the TV, the 2nd day I had the PC connected to it on VGA source and the image got doubled as you can see here: http://s868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/gstan80/?action=view&current=20120719_210738.jpg&newest=1 and here http://s868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/gstan80/?action=view&current=20120719_210639.jpg&newest=1
b. On the Blue Ray 3d Philips BDP6000, VGA, ANTENA, XBOX or any other source, I got judder or motion errors like I hope you can see on my YouTube videos here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmzDNHknj-U&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw&index=4&feature=plcp or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQLLpecd3s4&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw&index=2&feature=plcp

You can also watch my other Videos about the bad motion problems the Philips 47PFL6877 has. I will also try to post some today from the 3rd tv that I have.

The problem with the Philips PFL6 series is that on Pixel Precise HD, maximizing the effect will actually create that bug. If you can not see it perfectly because the phone video recording probably has low fps, I will try to explain in words.The best you could see it at the Olympics when the play field was in blue and on fast motion scenes. The contour or outline of the moving object (or a static object on moving the camera from left to right) is shaking and loosing sharpness. A close capture of a player moving the arm up and down will result in part of his hand remaining behind the natural flow of the motion creating that shaking image bug. If you take off that Pixel Precise HD feature, the bug of the Philips 47PFL6877 reduces itself but on the other hand you have bad judder on the entire moving scene. Imagine that the camera is following a flying object, than the entire scene has fractions of a second stops that creates the judder motion problem.

So either you chose not to have judder on the entire scene but only on parts and contours by selecting Pixel Precise HD ON either you take that off and the entire scene judder on moving scenes.

ElGiganten told me to replace it because it could be something bad with that particular TV.

Philips told me that could be because I did not upgrade to the last software or firmware available. I did that and the problem still persists. The software upgrading of the Philips 47PFL6877 did not solved the problem!

2nd TV
I did change it and happy returned home. I put my TV on the wall, directly update the software and guess what? Same bad motion picture plus noise! Lots of noise even if I totally reduce it from settings.

ElGiganten told me to contact Philips Customer Care as it is a new TV and they do not know what could be wrong.
Contacting the Philips Support I got a Service appointment for a team that should show up to my home, investigate the problem and fix it on the spot. They told me that the will get the possible bad parts replacement in about 5 days following that on the 2nd week to come, see and repair it.

I mention that all the Videos and Pictures with the problem were send to Philips so that "the specialist in this model will understand the problem"
It is now the 3rd week and I have no Service Team and no official answer from Philips. The only thing they have told me so far is that they will try to fix the problem. They were unable to tell me what is this about. I already lost like at least 24 hours investigating, taking pictures, videos and so on about the Philips 47pfl6877 bugs, judder problems on motion objects.

3rd TV.
Last Monday I decided to try one more time and change this one too. :)
Guess what? Same thing! Plus when I got the screen on, first time pressing the OK on the remote did not work. So again I was stuck not even having the possibility of installing the TV and test it. Finally I looked it up on their troubleshooting page and discover that sometimes you have to Pair the remote and the TV by pressing the blue and red button on the remote or something like that. If I wouldn't be into web I would probably end up changing the TV again jjust because of that..

Otherwise the same problems. I will post some more videos from the last Blue Ray I have rented, Cars2.

The problem was also visible on 3D watching the movie Immortals.

I am still waiting for Philips official answer and I will also post that on their forum today hoping that somebody from their Team of Specialists will be able to answer.

On the other hand I have to be honest and emphasize the impressive color tones and great contrast. If they would manage to fix that, they TV could be a great one. Also nice remote with keyboard, mobile app, and ambilight..All of the good ones are useless if the main thing which is the picture motion quality is weak showing bad judder on motion scenes. More people are calling that ghosting or?

Anyway, your comments would be really welcome.

Best regards,
G.

Philips - Benedickte
08-17-2012, 12:00 PM
Hi Gstan.

First of all welcome to our forums and congratulations on your TV.
I'm sorry you're not happy with the picture on the TV. I am very glad Elgiganten has been very helpful with you.

I can see you have connected you PC to the TV with an VGA cable. I would advise you to try another cable and make sure it's properly connected, and see if you still experiencing this issue with double pictures.

When it comes to the Juddering issue you are explaining, By turning On Natural Motion HD Natural Motion this juddering will be reduced, as this is it's purpose. On the other hand this mechanism has it's limitations and might not able to compensate every situation that might happen on the screen. The more detailed and fast moving the more the TV have to work to try to make a perfect picture.

Also please see my PM to you.

Best Regards
Benedickte

gstan80
08-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Hi there,

Thanks for the fast answer on that. Unfortunately you have a great colors and contrast TV with really good picture on static scenes or slow motion scenes. However the fast moving scenes are having bad juddy edges even on full HD sources connected via HDMI.

About the VGA problem, that did not occur ever since but the only solution that worked was to actually pull the cable out of the electricity socket and plug it back again. I can assure you that the VGA was a good quality one and perfectly connected. Disconnecting and connecting back the VGA did not changed anything and the picture stayed the same as you can see in the posted images.

If you manage to solve the judder on edges for motion scenes that would def. be a huge success. Otherwise the bug is so annoying that I personally can not stand watching it and I prefer looking on my old Thomson LCD which from this perspective works perfect but with a much lower contrast or natural colors.

Philips - Benedickte
08-17-2012, 01:12 PM
Hi there,

Thanks for the fast answer on that. Unfortunately you have a great colors and contrast TV with really good picture on static scenes or slow motion scenes. However the fast moving scenes are having bad juddy edges even on full HD sources connected via HDMI.

About the VGA problem, that did not occur ever since but the only solution that worked was to actually pull the cable out of the electricity socket and plug it back again. I can assure you that the VGA was a good quality one and perfectly connected. Disconnecting and connecting back the VGA did not changed anything and the picture stayed the same as you can see in the posted images.

If you manage to solve the judder on edges for motion scenes that would def. be a huge success. Otherwise the bug is so annoying that I personally can not stand watching it and I prefer looking on my old Thomson LCD which from this perspective works perfect but with a much lower contrast or natural colors.


Hi G.

Thank you for this information.
I can now inform you I have passed this information on to your customer service and they will have a second look into this and then get in contact with you.

Hope everythign gets sorted and please report back the result for us :)

Best wishes
Benedickte

gstan80
08-17-2012, 04:02 PM
Nice friendly mobile version!
Thanks for the reply. I hope somebody will give us an official answer about the issue. The last 3 weeks proved me that you are not willing to deliver a fast answer. Prove me you have good suport. :)

gstan80
08-18-2012, 11:55 AM
Nice friendly mobile version!
Thanks for the reply. I hope somebody will give us an official answer about the issue. The last 3 weeks proved me that you are not willing to deliver a fast answer. Prove me you have good suport. :)

Please watch and comment my latest upload about the issue that Philips 47PFL6877 has. Click:Philips 47PFL6877T judder motion problems and judder edges on moving objects because of Perfect Natural Motion feature in Pixel Precise HD settings. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNHJdIKJv3c&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw&index=1&feature=plcp) to find out more about this so called "feature" that acts like a bug.

Still waiting for an answer.

Kind regards.

Philips - Benedickte
08-20-2012, 01:21 PM
Nice friendly mobile version!
Thanks for the reply. I hope somebody will give us an official answer about the issue. The last 3 weeks proved me that you are not willing to deliver a fast answer. Prove me you have good suport. :)

Hi Gstan.

Please see your PM.

Best regards,
Benedickte

AliH
08-23-2012, 12:48 PM
Has the issues been solved?? Im thinking of buying the TV as well, but wont if there are those problems.

gstan80
08-23-2012, 01:27 PM
Has the issues been solved?? Im thinking of buying the TV as well, but wont if there are those problems.


Hi there,

Unfortunately the service team is slow. I will wait at least one more week until I will get scheduled...

It is really disturbing to have such a nice image but with bad motion interpretation. Most of the time, even in full HD parts of the moving objects (faster speeds, like sports) are left behind creating a watery blurred zone. Imagine a man moving the arm up and down fast and having a blue tennis court field as background. Part like half biceps is left behind a a blurred object. I still did not received an official explanation. I am not sure if that is the way it is or is is something that can be probably resolved by replacing a part or with a future update. The problem is that, if you take out the Perfect Natural Motion then you get all the moving scene ghosting and not just the moving objects inside.

The ambilight is superb, colors and contrast, the same as well as the clarity of static scenes or slow moving ones. Whenever the speed increases.. the problem comes back.

I will keep you posted on that.

Best regards,
Gabriel.

Philips - Benedickte
08-23-2012, 01:32 PM
Hi there,

Unfortunately the service team is slow. I will wait at least one more week until I will get scheduled...

It is really disturbing to have such a nice image but with bad motion interpretation. Most of the time, even in full HD parts of the moving objects (faster speeds, like sports) are left behind creating a watery blurred zone. Imagine a man moving the arm up and down fast and having a blue tennis court field as background. Part like half biceps is left behind a a blurred object. I still did not received an official explanation. I am not sure if that is the way it is or is is something that can be probably resolved by replacing a part or with a future update. The problem is that, if you take out the Perfect Natural Motion then you get all the moving scene ghosting and not just the moving objects inside.

The ambilight is superb, colors and contrast, the same as well as the clarity of static scenes or slow moving ones. Whenever the speed increases.. the problem comes back.

I will keep you posted on that.

Best regards,
Gabriel.

Hi Gabriel.

Have you updated to the latest sw (133.3) yet? You can find this at the support page for your TV.

Regards,
Benedickte

AliH
08-23-2012, 02:06 PM
Yes please do keep me updated Gabriel. Thanks.

@Benedickte
- is this a common issue that you are experiencing with this model?

Philips - Benedickte
08-23-2012, 02:31 PM
Yes please do keep me updated Gabriel. Thanks.

@Benedickte
- is this a common issue that you are experiencing with this model?

Hi AliH.

Welcome to the forums.

I am pleased to hear you have been thinking about buying a Philips TV. A 6000 series is a good choice. I am sure you have looked the specifications of the TV. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask:)

This is the only one I have seen with this issue, so not a common or known issue.

Best regards,
Benedickte

AliH
08-24-2012, 06:10 PM
Hi AliH.

Welcome to the forums.

I am pleased to hear you have been thinking about buying a Philips TV. A 6000 series is a good choice. I am sure you have looked the specifications of the TV. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask:)

This is the only one I have seen with this issue, so not a common or known issue.

Best regards,
Benedickte

Thanks for the reply Benedickte. And I hope its ok with you Gabriel, that im intruding your post

However, Benedickte - I find it strange that Gabriel has changed the model three times now and stil with the same problem? Makes me wondering that it might then just be a problem with model itself..

Regards,

Ali

gstan80
08-26-2012, 07:27 AM
As Ali noticed, I am also skeptical about the whole thing. Benedickte is good to know that my current software ver is 132.5.3. As far as I now , tv runs on the latest one.
What I have noticed: the sympthoms are much more present and worse when you have resolution under full HD. However, it is really disturbing to have that even on HD channels and/or Blue Ray. I would def. understand if we would have problems only in low resolution, which is not anyway normal. I mean you can see pixels due to lower reolution but that should not breake objects apart when moving. In HD or Blue Ray the 47PFL6877 is still interpretating the images in a wrong way, creating the problem we keep talking about. What happens with this tv is that being a relatively new on, not to many have been sold so far. Most of the time people are not so educated into picture quality and therefore they will not find those things disturbing or not even notice them. The tv has such a nice picture when it comes about colors and contrast that for most, such a deffect will pass unobserved. If you want to test it get a London 2012 Olympics recording with a sport played on blue court like handball, volleyball etc.. you will see the deffect perfectly.
Best, G.

mojoman
08-26-2012, 11:53 AM
Hi!

I have just bought the Philips 47pfl6877t. It has occurred to times now, that when I have switched the off and on, all the colors on the screen have turned blue/green. This is quite frustrating and I'm afraid I have to return my tv right away.

Is this an error you are familiar with?

I am running the current software: QF1EU-0.132.5.3

Hopefully I'll hear from you as soon as possible.

I have taken a photo of it, if it helps - I can email it to you if possible.

Thanks in advance,

Poul

gstan80
08-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Hi Poul, It could be helpf. if you can upload a photo so everybody can see it. Otherwise I recommend you to record a video and post it on YouTube.

mojoman
08-26-2012, 12:43 PM
Here is a photo of my screen. Hopefully it helps!

/1386Poul

Toengel
08-26-2012, 01:02 PM
HI,

current firmware is 133.3.0

Toengel@Alex

mojoman
08-26-2012, 01:13 PM
That is strange because when I run the software update menu I get the number 132.5.3 and it's says that there is no new software available and that the software is up to date.

How do I get the 133.3.0 firmware?

gstan80
08-26-2012, 01:16 PM
Wow. Benedickte can you confirm what is the latest?

mojoman
08-26-2012, 02:41 PM
That is strange because when I run the software update menu I get the number 132.5.3 and it's says that there is no new software available and that the software is up to date.

How do I get the 133.3.0 firmware?

Can anyone help?

Toengel
08-26-2012, 03:42 PM
Hi,

just go to the support webpage of your TV. Download the update, download the instructions... run update according to the instructions.

Toengel@Alex

Philips - Benedickte
08-28-2012, 01:28 PM
Hi all.

There came an update yesterday with more picture improvement, so the latest now is 133.4. You can find more about the fixes on the supportpage or in the software thread (http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7358-Your-experiences-with-FW-v133-x-x-for-6xx7-7xx7-and-8xx7-series-(2012-models)) .

I can inform you that the latest software get available over IP 2-4 weeks after it's release on the supportpage, this is the reason why your TV says you got the latest.

Download the software version on the support page like Toengel said and update with USB.

Best regards,
Benedickte

gstan80
09-02-2012, 01:16 PM
Hi all,
Did you miss my posts?
Well Philips you did not change any of the motion objects distorsion with the last software for the 47PFL6877. The problem still persists and only taking the perfect natural motion off is changing it but instead you get whole picture gosting in motion scenes. Turning the perfect natural motion PNM on, will take gosting out completly on maximum but on the other hand you get REALLY BAD EDGE DISTORION for the moving objects. It is a matter of choosing the less bad out of two. Also big backlit contrast, better colours and luminiosity such as Natural setting of the picture produces lots of noise and the reduction funtion doesn't do anything to it. So far I still have not being contacted by your service team. It is so disturbing not to receive support like promissed. The whole situation turns to be very frustating and a complain will probably be done to the customer protection office. It is obvious that this is a hard wired problem and not a software issue.

JJJP
09-03-2012, 12:40 PM
Hi all,
Did you miss my posts?
Well Philips you did not change any of the motion objects distorsion with the last software for the 47PFL6877. The problem still persists and only taking the perfect natural motion off is changing it but instead you get whole picture gosting in motion scenes. Turning the perfect natural motion PNM on, will take gosting out completly on maximum but on the other hand you get REALLY BAD EDGE DISTORION for the moving objects. It is a matter of choosing the less bad out of two. Also big backlit contrast, better colours and luminiosity such as Natural setting of the picture produces lots of noise and the reduction funtion doesn't do anything to it. So far I still have not being contacted by your service team. It is so disturbing not to receive support like promissed. The whole situation turns to be very frustating and a complain will probably be done to the customer protection office. It is obvious that this is a hard wired problem and not a software issue.

Thank you for this information and thank you for your post. I have also been thinking about buying this TV, expecially after seeing it in the same store as you bought it. But your posts have saved me from a bad experience. Let me know if you get any progress. In the mean time I will look for another TV. Any suggestions?

mojoman
09-05-2012, 05:58 PM
Hi!
When watching movies on AppleTV I experience that every now and then the movie is running on slowmotion for one or two seconds and then is playing like normal again. It seems like it is a software issue that the tv can't Compress the mpeg4 format. When wil Philips fix this issue? It is really annoying and streaming hd movies is the future of watching films.

dbah
09-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Hi to all.

I've got my 55pfl6097 yesterday and played with it whole day. Then I realise the bad motion effects which gstan80 posted many times. I shocked when I was watching my 1080p movies via usb and via my media player. It was very annoying and and finally go to sleep with a big dissapointment.
This morning I started to search the issue and ended up here. I guess this problem is not related with the software. Is anyone agree with me ?
I'm seriosly thinking of returning it back.

gstan80
09-10-2012, 02:56 PM
Hi to all.

I've got my 55pfl6097 yesterday and played with it whole day. Then I realise the bad motion effects which gstan80 posted many times. I shocked when I was watching my 1080p movies via usb and via my media player. It was very annoying and and finally go to sleep with a big dissapointment.
This morning I started to search the issue and ended up here. I guess this problem is not related with the software. Is anyone agree with me ?
I'm seriosly thinking of returning it back.

Hi,

As you can see no official reply yet. Plus there are no shortcuts to go directly to Picture Natural Motion or at least to Pixel Precise HD so you can chose what defect you want to have... :) Picture judder or motions objects breaking apart?
You should have this with the next firmware upgrade. "Chose the motion defect".. Any other sharing his/her's experience with the 47PFL6877?

Best regards,
G

Philips - Benedickte
09-10-2012, 04:03 PM
Hi all.

Could you please check if this also appears on the demo video you find on the TV?
Please provide us with a video showing this issue.

Thank you.
Benedickte

mojoman
09-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Hi all.

Could you please check if this also appears on the demo video you find on the TV?
Please provide us with a video showing this issue.

Thank you.
Benedickte

The motion effect error is horrible and I must admit that Philips future customers will definitely return your tv's very dissapointed if the Philips team can't fix this issue as soon as poosible.

I want to know what the Philips team's opinion is about this issue that everybody is having with the very bad motion effects in full HD? As noted earlier, this is a serious issue.

I want to know if this is a software issue or if its a hardware issue. If it's a hardware issue, I will most definitely return my tv and not recommend anyone to buy it.

Hopefully you'll reply as soon as possible!

gstan80
09-10-2012, 06:12 PM
Mojoman it is obvious that they have a huge problem and I really doubt this is only a software issue. I have been polling the alarm signal for 2months allready, time in which they had 2 updates for the 47PFL6877 and nothing has changed with the motion issue. Also Philips has not deliver any "it might be because of" answer on our complains. I have also been told that the technical service team will come and check my tv. They never showed up. I have been told I will receive a free gift for my patience in their try of washing the dirt created. A toothbrush, a phone or a remote control. Lol. I feel ofended honestly...
Benedicktte sorry, I know you are just doing your job and probably there is nothing you could or can do but tell your manager we want an official answer and not ambiguous and ridiculous instructions about things not solving the issue. I will consider your question about the demo clip a joke.

Best regards.
G.

mojoman
09-10-2012, 09:24 PM
Mojoman it is obvious that they have a huge problem and I really doubt this is only a software issue. I have been polling the alarm signal for 2months allready, time in which they had 2 updates for the 47PFL6877 and nothing has changed with the motion issue. Also Philips has not deliver any "it might be because of" answer on our complains. I have also been told that the technical service team will come and check my tv. They never showed up. I have been told I will receive a free gift for my patience in their try of washing the dirt created. A toothbrush, a phone or a remote control. Lol. I feel ofended honestly...
Benedicktte sorry, I know you are just doing your job and probably there is nothing you could or can do but tell your manager we want an official answer and not ambiguous and ridiculous instructions about things not solving the issue. I will consider your question about the demo clip a joke.

Best regards.
G.

I'm really in chocked to hear your story. Philips is this how you treat your customers? You better give us an honest answer as soon as possible. Can the horrible motion effects be solved or is it due to an hardware issue?

I expect to receive a true, realistic and serious answer within 24 hours. If not I have to go to my local store and return my TV, and explain them that the Philips Team obviously is having an issue and that the Philips Team is not willing to help their customers at all. I have all the documentation on this page and have taken dumpscreens of all the posts in this forum.

Hopefully you'll take this issue seriously and give me an answer as soon as possible.

Philips - Benedickte
09-11-2012, 11:26 AM
Mojoman it is obvious that they have a huge problem and I really doubt this is only a software issue. I have been polling the alarm signal for 2months allready, time in which they had 2 updates for the 47PFL6877 and nothing has changed with the motion issue. Also Philips has not deliver any "it might be because of" answer on our complains. I have also been told that the technical service team will come and check my tv. They never showed up. I have been told I will receive a free gift for my patience in their try of washing the dirt created. A toothbrush, a phone or a remote control. Lol. I feel ofended honestly...
Benedicktte sorry, I know you are just doing your job and probably there is nothing you could or can do but tell your manager we want an official answer and not ambiguous and ridiculous instructions about things not solving the issue. I will consider your question about the demo clip a joke.

Best regards.
G.

Hi G.

You will get contacted by the repair company during the day.

Regards,
Benedickte

gstan80
09-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Hi G.

You will get contacted by the repair company during the day.

Regards,
Benedickte

Finally! :) Yessss!!! Service Team will come tomorrow after 5pm.
Thanks Benedickte! :))))))

The part will be changed but we do not know what is wrong. So no diagnostic whatsoever but instead they will change some part. :)

Are we having problems because of that part or?

The patient has temperature. What are we doing? We cut out the appendix, it could be because of that. :))))))))))

How can Philips replace parts without letting us know what could be wrong. I am so looking forward to see what it will happen tomorrow.



Guys wait for my reply tomorrow after 6pm. CET. :))

Thanks once again Benedickte for your effort.

G.

mojoman
09-11-2012, 01:54 PM
Finally! :) Yessss!!! Service Team will come tomorrow after 5pm.
Thanks Benedickte! :))))))

The part will be changed but we do not know what is wrong. So no diagnostic whatsoever but instead they will change some part. :)

Are we having problems because of that part or?

The patient has temperature. What are we doing? We cut out the appendix, it could be because of that. :))))))))))

How can Philips replace parts without letting us know what could be wrong. I am so looking forward to see what it will happen tomorrow.



Guys wait for my reply tomorrow after 6pm. CET. :))

Thanks once again Benedickte for your effort.

G.

This is SO WRONG! How can Philips prioritize one customer and not give support to their other customers? I'll most definitely return my tv right away then and let my philips store hear this story!

Philips - Benedickte
09-11-2012, 01:57 PM
This is SO WRONG! How can Philips prioritize one customer and not give support to their other customers? I'll most definitely return my tv right away then and let my philips store hear this story!

Hi Mojoman.

Have you been in contact with your local customer service?

Benedickte

gstan80
09-11-2012, 02:03 PM
This is SO WRONG! How can Philips prioritize one customer and not give support to their other customers? I'll most definitely return my tv right away then and let my philips store hear this story!

Hi Mojoman,

They are not prioritizing me.

I did a complain about 2 months ago. :) You do not have to be upset on that.

Be upset that we do not receive an answer of what is causing the problem. I do not want to prejudge but I have a strong feeling that the service will not be able to fix it. As I said, they are changing a part but no official answer from Philips said that is that part that has to be changed (including name of the part) because it is it creating the motion problem..

So stay tuned! I will let you know what happens.

Best, G

dbah
09-11-2012, 02:32 PM
Hi all.

Could you please check if this also appears on the demo video you find on the TV?
Please provide us with a video showing this issue.

Thank you.
Benedickte


Thank you Benedickte for your respond. I will check the bad motion problem on the demo video as you said. And I also try to film the effect.
I can add that, I watched a original bluray movie (not mkv) and bad motion effect is a bit less than the mkv format.
And I can also add that, I watched the same mkv on a samsung tv and there is no such bad motion on that one.
I'm doing such things to point the problem accurately and clear some questions for the philips team at least.

Regards.

mojoman
09-11-2012, 03:09 PM
Hi Mojoman.

Have you been in contact with your local customer service?

Benedickte

Hi Benedickte,

No I haven't contacted Philips customer service yet, but it is quite obvious that Philips are having a serious "Motion Effect" issues on their televisions.

This is the fourth time I'll be asking you:

Is the "Motion Effect" issue, that everybody in this forum is aware of - including you - is a serious issue, a software problem or is it a hardware problem.

I haven't been able to get an answer to my question yet.

But since the Philips team are going home ti Gstan80 private adress, to change a physical part on his television, to help sort the motion effect problem, it seems as Philips are admitting that they are having a serious hardware issue.

If I wont get a serious answer to my question today, I will return my tv tomorrow, and show my local store the bad customer service in this thread, that all of Philips clients have received. This is totally unacceptable and we should all really consider a lawsuit against Philips Customer Service Team.

gstan80
09-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Thank you Benedickte for your respond. I will check the bad motion problem on the demo video as you said. And I also try to film the effect.
I can add that, I watched a original bluray movie (not mkv) and bad motion effect is a bit less than the mkv format.
And I can also add that, I watched the same mkv on a samsung tv and there is no such bad motion on that one.
I'm doing such things to point the problem accurately and clear some questions for the philips team at least.

Regards.

dbah,

That clip is not relevant. It does not contain fast moving objects in the scene. A fast moving object is when the scene is staying still or moving slow but the object inside it is moving faster.

I have experienced all the possible sources like DVD, blue-ray, 3d blue-ray, full HD TV, VGA, smart tv.. all. :)

Is always depands. It is not a precise rule.

We have to scenarios:

Instance 1: Camera following a car (the car stays in the center of the scene) as the camera moves from left to right.

If you do not turn on Perfect Natural Motion then you get judder for the terraces behind the race track. That is called ghosting.

Instance 2: Turning Perfect Natural Motion ON, will make nice motion for "Instance 1" but will create object breaking or edge judder in the following:
Camera is not moving and inside the scene you have a table tennis game. As the players are making fast moves their edges are breaking apart not being able to follow the normal motion.

In this case you will feel the need to take Perfect Natural Motion Off, which will take away the problem, but in case the camera is moving like in "Instance 1" you get the other problem.

..and so on..

As I said before you have to chose which bad behavior you want to have. It is impossible to run the TV without any of the above problems.

Best to all!
G

l00pu5
09-11-2012, 03:23 PM
Hi Benedickte,

No I haven't contacted Philips customer service yet, but it is quite obvious that Philips are having a serious "Motion Effect" issues on their televisions.

This is the fourth time I'll be asking you:

Is the "Motion Effect" issue, that everybody in this forum is aware of - including you - is a serious issue, a software problem or is it a hardware problem.

I haven't been able to get an answer to my question yet.

But since the Philips team are going home ti Gstan80 private adress, to change a physical part on his television, to help sort the motion effect problem, it seems as Philips are admitting that they are having a serious hardware issue.

If I wont get a serious answer to my question today, I will return my tv tomorrow, and show my local store the bad customer service in this thread, that all of Philips clients have received. This is totally unacceptable and we should all really consider a lawsuit against Philips Customer Service Team.

What the hell?!?
Let me tell you something: if this is such a "serious issue", how come I didn't even see it so far on my TV set (42PFL6097K/12)? My set is performing perfectly fine!
By reading what you just wrote I'm somehow gettin' the impression that this is some sort of of epidemic issue (at least that's what you want to make us believe here, I think), which is actually far from the truth.

From my point of view, it's neither a hardware nor a software problem - the product just doesn't meet your expectations.

One question, though: why do you think that Philips is admitting that it's a known issue by offering a home repair to a consumer, just to see whether there really is something with the set or not?
No offense, but there's something seriously wrong with your perception of things.
By the way: what you're going to do is defamation :rolleyes:

gstan80
09-11-2012, 04:17 PM
We have here people from diferrent parts of the world complaining and you are saying we have issues and not the tv itself. Your tv model seems to be diferent and probably you's is working well. Lucky you. Do you think we have nothing better to do than spending time talking here, looking for answers on other forums and loose our time recording videos and taking pictures hoping to help Philips identifying the problem.

mojoman
09-11-2012, 04:30 PM
What the hell?!?
Let me tell you something: if this is such a "serious issue", how come I didn't even see it so far on my TV set (42PFL6097K/12)? My set is performing perfectly fine!
By reading what you just wrote I'm somehow gettin' the impression that this is some sort of of epidemic issue (at least that's what you want to make us believe here, I think), which is actually far from the truth.

From my point of view, it's neither a hardware nor a software problem - the product just doesn't meet your expectations.

One question, though: why do you think that Philips is admitting that it's a known issue by offering a home repair to a consumer, just to see whether there really is something with the set or not?
No offense, but there's something seriously wrong with your perception of things.
By the way: what you're going to do is defamation :rolleyes:

l00Pu5,

1. Your television is not the same as the televisions that are having this serious issue (yes it is a serious issue, that a television for around 11.000 DKK has a motion effect issue. It is one of Philips' top models. A motion effect issue shouldn't occur in that price range).

2. My expectations to a TV in that price range is that it doesn't have such fatal errors. Additionally I was told by the local store locator, that this TV had the best motion picture - even better than Samsungs 7 and 8 series. So yes, off course my expectations are high!

3. I think that Philips are admitting that there is a hardware issue - indirectly. I just want the statement from the Philips team: "There is a hardware issue, contact your local customer service" or what I hope for "There is a software issue, wait for the upcoming update!".

What I am doing is not defamation, but trying to get things right! So far, the service has been horrible!

mojoman
09-11-2012, 04:40 PM
I couldn't agree with you more gstan80.

l00pu5
09-11-2012, 08:42 PM
I couldn't agree with you more gstan80.


Let's sum up some of the facts:
-> you all (which is 3 individuals in this thread until now) see intermittent artifacts generated by the motion compensation mechanism
-> we have 3 TV sets affected: 2x 47PFL6877T + 1x 55PFL6097
-> my 42PFL6097 is working fine (at least I'm not seeing any strange things that I wouldn't have expected, given that the set uses its built-in motion compensation mechanism)
-> all 4 sets share the same chassis, (almost) the same SW stack and are LVDS-driven
-> out of 4 sets, we have 3 different screen sizes here
-> all these different models share exactly the same level of picture enhancement mechanisms

What makes you think that my 6097 cannot be possibly affected then? Please enlighten me by giving me a logical explanation for that.

mojoman
09-11-2012, 10:59 PM
l00pu5, In fact, that your TV set isn't the same model as the TV sets, that apparently are having the motion effects problem, should be a logical explanation enough. If it isn't, you just simply aren't wise enough.

Btw. you can try to google the motion effects issue and you will get dozens of links regarding this issue - therefore it's a serious issue and not an issue relating 3 tv sets!

gstan80
09-12-2012, 10:19 AM
l00pu5, In fact, that your TV set isn't the same model as the TV sets, that apparently are having the motion effects problem, should be a logical explanation enough. If it isn't, you just simply aren't wise enough.

Btw. you can try to google the motion effects issue and you will get dozens of links regarding this issue - therefore it's a serious issue and not an issue relating 3 tv sets!


l00pu5 you are so working for Philips here. :))

1. "intermittent artifacts generated by the motion compensation mechanism"

in plain English what would that be?

2. "all 4 sets share the same chassis, (almost) the same SW stack and are LVDS-driven
"
in plain English what would that be?

Considering your technical vocabulary I would say you are definitely more than just a simple Philips buyer that has nothing better to do than replying to unhappy customers problems.

3. "What makes you think that my 6097 cannot be possibly affected then?"
Is it possible that from a lot of 10 000 tv sets, just a few to have hardware problems?

4. "One question, though: why do you think that Philips is admitting that it's a known issue by offering a home repair to a consumer, just to see whether there really is something with the set or not?"
How do you know that the service team is coming just to see if it really is a problem or not?

5. "From my point of view, it's neither a hardware nor a software problem - the product just doesn't meet your expectations."

That is what we are trying to figure out here but no official answer has been provided.
Are these "intermittent artifacts generated by the motion compensation mechanism" normal or not. We need to know that in order to return the TV and consider buying some other brand or not.

That is what we are trying to find out for weeks. Is that they way TV works or is that a bug or a hardware problem.

And to synthesize the whole discussion, yes it really is frustrating to pay such a big amount and see a football game where the ball is ghosting like hell on the screen or the players are shaking in motion..

And we are here because we consider ourselves victims of misinformed personnel from our electronics stores (as in DK, here at ElGiganten I've been told that Philips has the best motion over all the other brands (showing me a convenient demo movie clip they have), plus no official answer from Philips Customer Care related to this problem)

You are probably here to submit counter-complains for Philips.

mojoman
09-12-2012, 10:42 AM
gstan80, you just nailed it! I couldn't have said it better myself.

In regard to the motion effects issue - when can we get an official answer Philips Team????

How hard can it be to tell us if it's hardware issue, software issue or that the tv just can't perform better?

gstan80: "how was the customer visit you received from the Philips Team? Did they change a hardware device on your tv? Did it sort out the problem?

gstan80
09-12-2012, 10:47 AM
They are coming today after 5pm Stockholm time. No worries, I ll keep you updated.

gstan80
09-12-2012, 05:02 PM
I know you are all waiting for my feedback on the technician's visit today. :)

The technician came and notice the problems. He said that since is the 3rd tv I have it is not the case to change the main unit and he didn't do it. He said that he will report everything to the office and they will call me back tomorrow.

As expected it is not a defect and probably just a crappy motion processing on the tv. Now Philips has to tell us if this is a hardware problem not to be solved with any future upgrades or if this can be manage with the nexts update.

So Philips please let us know as soon as you finish the report.

Best regards,
Gabriel.

JJJP
09-13-2012, 09:48 AM
I know you are all waiting for my feedback on the technician's visit today. :)

The technician came and notice the problems. He said that since is the 3rd tv I have it is not the case to change the main unit and he didn't do it. He said that he will report everything to the office and they will call me back tomorrow.

As expected it is not a defect and probably just a crappy motion processing on the tv. Now Philips has to tell us if this is a hardware problem not to be solved with any future upgrades or if this can be manage with the nexts update.

So Philips please let us know as soon as you finish the report.

Best regards,
Gabriel.

Thanks for the update, looking forward to your reply!

/J

gstan80
09-13-2012, 11:58 AM
Thanks for the update, looking forward to your reply!

/J

The movie continues.

They called me and they said they will pick up the TV today or tomorrow, for tests, time in which they will let me have a spare one. :))

graanne
09-13-2012, 12:10 PM
Hi,
just for statistical reliability, I bought a Philips 47pfl6877T from Elgiganten Jönköping(Sweden) last week and it suffers from same judder as you have described.

gstan80
09-13-2012, 12:26 PM
Hi,
just for statistical reliability, I bought a Philips 47pfl6877T from Elgiganten Jönköping(Sweden) last week and it suffers from same judder as you have described.

So now we have like that:

Sweden
Elgiganten
Barkarby (my 1st), Häggvik (my 2nd), Bromma(my 3rd) and
Jönköping (graanne),

Denmark:
- please feel free to fill in the store name.
Copenhagen (mojoman)

Turkey:
- please feel free to fill in the store name.
- please feel free to fill in the city name. (dbah)

Fell free to continue this list if you are having the same problems.

Thanks graanne for your submition and please let us know what would be your decision regarding this issue. Any feedback from the store?

mrb1972
09-13-2012, 01:15 PM
b. On the Blue Ray 3d Philips BDP6000, VGA, ANTENA, XBOX or any other source, I got judder or motion errors like I hope you can see on my YouTube videos here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmzDNHknj-U&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw&index=4&feature=plcp or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQLLpecd3s4&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw&index=2&feature=plcp
G.

Do you get the same effects playing xbox games? ie 60hz ones like Call of duty?
Also I assume your blu ray's are running at 24p, if you switch your blu ray player to 60hz rather than 24p do you see the same issues?

gstan80
09-14-2012, 08:32 AM
Do you get the same effects playing xbox games? ie 60hz ones like Call of duty?
Also I assume your blu ray's are running at 24p, if you switch your blu ray player to 60hz rather than 24p do you see the same issues?


Hi,

Thanks for this suggestion. I will have to try it. Will let you know. I know it runs on auto, now.

I noticed the same defect when watching HD TV like History HD, and I press the HOME button so I can reach the Image settings. When the HOME MENU pops up, it creates same misunderstanding of motion issue.
I guess that is the easiest way to check it.

Else any close scene with a plane landing or a fast zooming out scene. Those mentioned are all on TV..

However the issues noticed while watching full HD TV channels only are less than any other non HD channel or full HD blue ray movies.

Best regards,
G

graanne
09-14-2012, 08:45 AM
So now we have like that:

Sweden
Elgiganten
Barkarby (my 1st), Häggvik (my 2nd), Bromma(my 3rd) and
Jönköping (graanne),

Denmark:
- please feel free to fill in the store name.
Copenhagen (mojoman)

Turkey:
- please feel free to fill in the store name.
- please feel free to fill in the city name. (dbah)

Fell free to continue this list if you are having the same problems.

Thanks graanne for your submition and please let us know what would be your decision regarding this issue. Any feedback from the store?

Beside this issue and a dead pixel, I like the tv, so I will wait to see if they manage to fix your tv. If they don't I will change to another model or brand. If they do fix it I will stick with this model.
Have not contacted the store jet.

gstan80
09-14-2012, 08:56 AM
Beside this issue and a dead pixel, I like the tv, so I will wait to see if they manage to fix your tv. If they don't I will change to another model or brand. If they do fix it I will stick with this model.
Have not contacted the store jet.

Same for me. I really like the TV and as I already said, the colors and the contrast are far the best compared to all other brands in this price range.

Other things I like: keyboard on the back of the remote (not fast responding but still.. you have something to type rather than picking up letter using the arrows left right..etc
Ambilight that creates a complete unique mood while watching.
Fairly good design even if is not a frame-less one.

I still hope is something that can be fixed.

G.

Philips - Benedickte
09-14-2012, 10:26 AM
Hi all.

For the ones that are experiecing this issue, could you please provide a video or movie clips where we can clearly see this issue?

Thank you.
Best regards
Benedickte

majorusa
09-14-2012, 10:28 AM
Hi!

I discovered this topic today and I am completely puzzled. I raised the same issue with motion judder at the edges of the screen of my 42PFL6007K one and a half month ago but in the FW related thread. It is FW related. It is FW improvable. It was mentioned several times by different users in the FW thread. Therefore I do not understand Philips behavior in your case.
The funny thing is that the motion was already improved twice but still is worse than my 42PFL9603D and only around the edges. This issue is even more visible in 3D regardless the source. And the champion test image for this issue is the History Channel HD logo moving on the screen.

gstan80
09-14-2012, 10:45 AM
Hi!

I discovered this topic today and I am completely puzzled. I raised the same issue with motion judder at the edges of the screen of my 42PFL6007K one and a half month ago but in the FW related thread. It is FW related. It is FW improvable. It was mentioned several times by different users in the FW thread. Therefore I do not understand Philips behavior in your case.
The funny thing is that the motion was already improved twice but still is worse than my 42PFL9603D and only around the edges. This issue is even more visible in 3D regardless the source. And the champion test image for this issue is the History Channel HD logo moving on the screen.

Yess! History Channel HD LOGO - GREAT observation!

and I will add the subtitle surroundings shaking like hell when the image is moving, left-right for example..

can you please put up a link on that thread?

majorusa
09-14-2012, 11:23 AM
Here you go Benedikte. Look how the logo fractures at the edges of the screen. If you want frame by frame analysis I can give you the video file.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxDiVFssylQ&feature=youtu.be

I can tell you also that the same behavior occurs by example in a movie scene where there are soldiers with spears or where you have pronounced vertical lines.

@gstan80

All the firmware threads locate in here:
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/forumdisplay.php?149-TV-Software-2012-models

I have to admit that I mentioned this problem in the 3D context but searching here you will see like: horrendous movement, artifacts, etc.

gstan80
09-14-2012, 12:16 PM
Hi all.

For the ones that are experiecing this issue, could you please provide a video or movie clips where we can clearly see this issue?

Thank you.
Best regards
Benedickte

Benedickte just try calling the tech guy who pass by me and ask him if he saw something wrong or not in the TV'S motion processing. Perhaps you will believe him and he can describe using the Philips technical vocabulary.

I will however come back with lots of videos and I will try to also create slow motion videos so everything can be see clearly, as WE CLEARLY NEED AN OFFICIAL ANSWER.

Best regards,
G

Philips - Benedickte
09-14-2012, 03:27 PM
Hi all.

Could you please check what software you got installed on your TV's and report back to me?

Thank you.
Best regards,
Benedickte

MrPuzzle
09-14-2012, 06:03 PM
Hi all.

Could you please check what software you got installed on your TV's and report back to me?

Thank you.
Best regards,
Benedickte

Hi Benedickte

Just bought 47PFL6877T/12 a week ago and having the same "judder" issues as posted on this thread. My installed software is: QF1EU-0.133.4.0
There is no new software avalible on Philips.com for my model.
What to do?

Regards, MP

majorusa
09-14-2012, 10:49 PM
Benedikte.

I downgraded from 133.5 to 133.4 because 133.5 slowed the TV set. But the judder was present in 133.5 too.

_Stephan
09-17-2012, 11:32 AM
Reporting in on the same issue on my 37PFL6007/K12

Whenever there is a static image or text against a moving background there is trouble. I wasn't able to make video's, but captured it on photo, using the BluRay of the documentry 'Marley'. I hope this contributes to resolving this issue.

14411442

PS. The 'good' versus 'pixelstorm' image is not a good versus bad settings. It's just that depending on whether the background is also fairly static versus a background that is moving.

JJJP
09-17-2012, 02:57 PM
Reporting in on the same issue on my 37PFL6007/K12

Whenever there is a static image or text against a moving background there is trouble. I wasn't able to make video's, but captured it on photo, using the BluRay of the documentry 'Marley'. I hope this contributes to resolving this issue.

14411442

PS. The 'good' versus 'pixelstorm' image is not a good versus bad settings. It's just that depending on whether the background is also fairly static versus a background that is moving.

So, can we conclude on that this is a hardware issue?

Philips, please provide me with an answer in the next few days to, why I still should buy this TV, and what you intend to do about this problem? (or you will loose me as a customer)

_Stephan
09-17-2012, 04:01 PM
So, can we conclude on that this is a hardware issue?

hi JJJP, I'm not sure yet. I surely hope not! I guess my wordings were somewhat misleading. I tried to say that the settings in both pictures are the same, but that one photo was taken a second after the other. Obviously using the same settings.

I have NOT tried many different settings. But what I did try was using the standard settings as delivered, and switching off all software picutre quality improvement options. It brings me back to the same result...

mrb1972
09-18-2012, 09:46 AM
Is this problem only effecting the 6000 range or all the 2012 range?

gstan80
09-18-2012, 12:35 PM
Shortly the story is that the service company would like to take my tv for further investigation in their center. Well.. I do not understand that anymore. So I had a Philips technician coming to my house and the Philips HQ has still no opinion about our problems. Instead they are planning to take the TV for what? They can have any TV of such kind because they are all the same. They do not have to take mine for tests..

It is obvious that this issue has no solving and they are just buying time pretending that they have no idea about it.

Philips and Benedickte please let us have an official answer. I am sick of how many times I am switching between Perfect Natural Motion on and off. None of the settings is resolving the problem. As I said, you just change in between 2 bad motion instances. It is either everything ghosting with the Perfect Natural Motion off or Object Edges Judder or distortion with Perfect Natural Motion on.

No ghosting and no object edge judder together is not possible.

As the technician said: "Id does not make any sense to change the main unit since you are already owning the 3rd TV and still have problems"

Now please answer: hardware or software problem?

Be decent and let us know because nobody will pay back the time we lost investigating this problem. First I said that this can really be a bug or something and I was more than glad to help Philips investigating it.

But since for all the amount of time spent (investigating) and nerves consuming (thinking that we payed aprox. 1500 Euro on a tv that is not reflecting the price in the quality), we still do not get an answer, customer protection might be a way to go.

Please answer our requests!

Thank you,
G.

Knubbo
09-19-2012, 03:54 AM
Hi
I have just bougt the same type of tv as all other in this thred
Philips 47PFL6877T/12
And i have the exakt same problem as gstan80 with my tv. Ireally hope you can fix this. No i demand it get fixed since i paid 13000 swe/kr for the tv.
If not i will send it back and never buy from philips again.
I really love this tv if this problem can be fixed.

marnick
09-19-2012, 06:37 PM
Hi all,

We have the same problem with our 6000 serie..
model 47PFL6067H/12

first thing we did was call the centre where we bought our tv...
they gived us the number of phillips and so we called.

first they checked the firmeware of software and what he said was,
sorry be patient but your tv is much modern that our system here -.-

so he asked to reset everything fully => we did
to check for cheap cables => we have HD/3D gold plated cables of 60€ !!
then he said he know what te problem was and it was some hardware piece that they need to order.

after a week and half of nothing i called and they check and saw that the 'piece' was not availeble anymore.
he said you are going to get a new tv !

as happy as we where.. after mutch calling and chekking and calling for updates
the new tv system came after about month and half i thing ?!

they dropped of the new tv took back the first one and off he go..
after completing the install agaaain the same !!

i went to the place we bought the system and the said we will send a technition...
after a week i called and they said it is not our problem call philips.. --'

We did not called philips sinds then, but the blur and motion is so enoing i searched on the internet and found this forum and see many more people have complanes about this !!

Does anyone have a solution for this is it hardware, software, settings we need to adjust :s ?
pleas help.. (tommorow i decided to call philips about this)....
grtz !

marnick
09-19-2012, 06:40 PM
Ow and we never had a flatscreen ever before..
we saw this tv in the store and payed about 1500 for a tv !?
and now we think this is the stopidst thing we ever did -.-

Knubbo
09-21-2012, 11:07 AM
marnick
Please let us now what philip says about it when you call them.

Philips - Benedickte
09-21-2012, 11:38 AM
marnick
Please let us now what philip says about it when you call them.

Hi Knubbo.

Could you please confirm to me what software is installed on the TV?

Thank you.
Best regards,
Benedickte

JJJP
09-21-2012, 12:32 PM
Hi Knubbo.

Could you please confirm to me what software is installed on the TV?

Thank you.
Best regards,
Benedickte

Okay, thats it. I have had enough with the excuses. I am going to go ahead and buy a LG47LM660 instead. Best of luck to you guys!

/J

Knubbo
09-21-2012, 12:55 PM
Hi Knubbo.

Could you please confirm to me what software is installed on the TV?

Thank you.
Best regards,
Benedickte

my firmware is QF1EU-0.133.4.0_bld8a

marnick
09-21-2012, 12:56 PM
marnick
Please let us now what philip says about it when you call them.

Hi,
When i called about a 30minits on the phone again they could not find anything on my name, email, zip-code,...
when i said the story and this was the second tv they asked if i got one from a repair center.
i said yes the repair center was cannoodt so i needed to call them about the problem..
i called cannoodt they say they would call me back but sinds yesterday still no reply :s
it looks like no one want the blame and i need to call every one what cost money also !!

realy disapointing about a 1500€ tv with "motion shitt" .
hope i get an solution quick about this :s

Philips - Benedickte
09-21-2012, 02:05 PM
Hi,
When i called about a 30minits on the phone again they could not find anything on my name, email, zip-code,...
when i said the story and this was the second tv they asked if i got one from a repair center.
i said yes the repair center was cannoodt so i needed to call them about the problem..
i called cannoodt they say they would call me back but sinds yesterday still no reply :s
it looks like no one want the blame and i need to call every one what cost money also !!

realy disapointing about a 1500€ tv with "motion shitt" .
hope i get an solution quick about this :s

Hi Marnick.

Please see your PM.

Benedickte

Philips - Benedickte
09-21-2012, 02:09 PM
So, can we conclude on that this is a hardware issue?

Philips, please provide me with an answer in the next few days to, why I still should buy this TV, and what you intend to do about this problem? (or you will loose me as a customer)

Hi JJJP.

We are still looking into this issue. Please be patient while we're invastigating this.

Benedickte

Herzie
09-21-2012, 10:25 PM
I also just bought a Phillips 47PFL6877 and also noticed the uneven edge effect. I've been following this thread for about a week and joined only to join in on applying pressure on Phillips.

I realize (and to some degree understand) that Benedicte isn't able to make an official statement, but still I feel that Philips is giving us customers the runaround. Please provide a straight-forward answer to the obvious serious fault to a "high-end" consumer product. Gstan raised this issue more than a month ago plenty time to have capable technicians investigate the problem. It is clear that most (if not all) tv's of this model will be effected by this issue.

On a sidenote I hope that the firmware will be optizimed in regards to its responsiveness. I hate how the menus lack and makes the feel of the television cheap! Not what one expects from a 1500 euro product. And yes I have updated to the newest firmware version.

MrPuzzle
09-21-2012, 11:35 PM
Hi all...I have just returned my tv to Elgiganten today. They where informed by Philips that the latest software 133.5 where not suited for our tv's and that they soon will come with the right one (too late for me). I hope that Philips solves this problem for you all (and them selves) looking back on these last 13 frustrating days i have had...bb MP

Herzie
09-22-2012, 07:21 AM
Hi all...I have just returned my tv to Elgiganten today. They where informed by Philips that the latest software 133.5 where not suited for our tv's and that they soon will come with the right one (too late for me). I hope that Philips solves this problem for you all (and them selves) looking back on these last 13 frustrating days i have had...bb MP

Here's hoping that the people at Elgiganten didn't just say that to make you keep the television. What was your impression of that, did they seem truthful?

gstan80
09-22-2012, 08:21 AM
Hi Herzie and all the new ones,

Thank you for taking some time and register on this topic. It is vital to have as many complains as possible because otherwise the only thing they are doing is buying time and ask about software versions or other diversions.

As I am telling you right now. The tech guy told me straight that changing the main unit it will not solve anything. He had it with him but he said it is not make any sense to do that since I am already having the 3rd unit.

He said that a team can investigate the TV in their center if I want. I am already sick of everything that happened and the way I was treated with a totally indifference. I was brainwashed by the sales rep. in ElGiganten about how great Philips when it comes about motion and everything.

My personal opinion is that without a official complain to your local Customer Service Office you will not put any kind of pressure on Philips. It is obvious that Benedickte will continue asking everyone about the software version, and you can not blame her because that it the place where she gets paid from, and we will never probably be treated with the respect we are trying to buy paying 1500 Euro.

Official Customer Protection Office complains guys! Else..


I also just bought a Phillips 47PFL6877 and also noticed the uneven edge effect. I've been following this thread for about a week and joined only to join in on applying pressure on Phillips.

I realize (and to some degree understand) that Benedicte isn't able to make an official statement, but still I feel that Philips is giving us customers the runaround. Please provide a straight-forward answer to the obvious serious fault to a "high-end" consumer product. Gstan raised this issue more than a month ago plenty time to have capable technicians investigate the problem. It is clear that most (if not all) tv's of this model will be effected by this issue.

On a sidenote I hope that the firmware will be optizimed in regards to its responsiveness. I hate how the menus lack and makes the feel of the television cheap! Not what one expects from a 1500 euro product. And yes I have updated to the newest firmware version.

_Stephan
09-22-2012, 05:39 PM
I surely hope Philips will come with a solution. Am I right in thinking it's only the 6xx7 series that are affected? Could that have to do that the 6xx7 is the only TV using LG panels (hence the passive 3D) and maybe the firmware is optimised for the 7 & 8 series panels?

Benedicte,
I'm running 133.4. I know there is 133.5, but using the WiFi connection the TV tells me 133.4 is the latest version (I have a 37PFL6007K/12).

Knubbo
09-23-2012, 04:47 PM
I have now send complaints to philips sweden about this problem.
So lets here what they have to say about it. I will let you guys now what they tell me.

gstan80
09-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Benedickte, I am currently running on 133.4.0. Is there any new one available?

Best, G.

majorusa
09-24-2012, 08:43 AM
Hi Benedikte,

I uploaded a new video showing the HDNM issues I was talking about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KilUA1A6ls4&feature=youtu.be

Look at the right side of the picture where the bars are. The image is breaking like a ripple is passing through. It looks like the processor cannot cope with the rapid moving of the vertical lines.

Please let us know if this is fixable or not. Thank you.

gstan80
09-24-2012, 08:53 AM
Hi Benedikte,

I uploaded a new video showing the HDNM issues I was talking about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KilUA1A6ls4&feature=youtu.be

Look at the right side of the picture where the bars are. The image is breaking like a ripple is passing through. It looks like the processor cannot cope with the rapid moving of the vertical lines.

Please let us know if this is fixable or not. Thank you.


Great movie majorusa!

Hope somebody will have eyes to see it. :)

Best regards and thanks for your contribution to this never ending problem.

G.

Philips - Benedickte
09-24-2012, 09:01 AM
Benedickte, I am currently running on 133.4.0. Is there any new one available?

Best, G.

Hi G, and Stephan.

Tha latest (133.5) is available from the support page and this can be updated by using a USB stick/flash drive.

I can inform you guys I have sent this further for investigation.

@Majorusa thank you for another upload.

Best regards,
Benedickte

gstan80
09-24-2012, 09:04 AM
Hi G, and Stephan.

Tha latest (133.5) is available from the support page and this can be updated by using a USB stick/flash drive.

I can inform you guys I have sent this further for investigation.

@Majorusa thank you for another upload.

Best regards,
Benedickte

Hi Benedickte,

Since Philips is not clearly mentioning that the 133.5 version will fix that issue, I assume that nothing will radically improve on upgrade. I will how ever do it this afternoon and reply about the process.

Thanks,
G.

Knubbo
09-24-2012, 03:11 PM
Inow run the 133.5 version and there is no change in picture still same problem. :(
Hi Benedickte,

Since Philips is not clearly mentioning that the 133.5 version will fix that issue, I assume that nothing will radically improve on upgrade. I will how ever do it this afternoon and reply about the process.

Thanks,
G.

Boddiz
09-24-2012, 04:22 PM
I'm looking around for a new tv and liked this model alot with the ambilights, but then i did see this thread about this problem and now i don't know if it worth to buy it.
But if i want a tv with ambilight 3 i doesn't have much to choose from other than this one.

How big do you guys think the problem is, is it worth to buy this tv or should i find something else if this doesn't get fixed?

Herzie
09-24-2012, 06:09 PM
Today I had a visit from a repair guy to fix an ambilight LED that was incorrectly mounted. I asked him about the motion issue, but he hadn't heard about it. Based on my explanation his thoughts were, that it is hardware and not software related :( Ofcause that was just his thoughts...

On a sidenote, a previous post mentioned that the panel could be from LG. This I can confirm as a sticker on the back of the panel said LG. One could hope, that since LG doesn't have these problems, maybe it can be fixed via a software update?!

majorusa
09-25-2012, 12:54 PM
Dear Benedikte,

I want to give you a benchmark that your development team to use in tracking this issue. Here is the original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDzcnxglmIE&feature=player_embedded

Here is what this video looks on 42PFL6007K - Sorry for the shaky camera.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyL-YnmBMbU&feature=youtu.be

The point is that the HDNM function does not process in a correct manner the vertical lines moving with speed and this is happening regardless the source: the first video with the History channel logo was from DVB-C, the one with the prison was from a mediaplyer playing web content through HDMI and this video is from youtube player in Smart TV. This inability of processing the vertical lines is the reason for which people are complaining about ghosting etc.

It will be interesting to know if this is the case with 7xx7 and 8xx7 series too or is just localized at the 6xx7 series.

I thing that you have enough proof to acknowledge this issue and to state that you are trying to solve it. I am looking forward for a quick solving of this very annoying issue present both in 2D and 3D. In 3D is even more disturbing since the broken lines gain spatial dimensions.

I am looking forward for your answer.

mrb1972
09-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Dear Benedikte,

I want to give you a benchmark that your development team to use in tracking this issue. Here is the original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDzcnxglmIE&feature=player_embedded

Here is what this video looks on 42PFL6007K - Sorry for the shaky camera.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyL-YnmBMbU&feature=youtu.be

The point is that the HDNM function does not process in a correct manner the vertical lines moving with speed and this is happening regardless the source: the first video with the History channel logo was from DVB-C, the one with the prison was from a mediaplyer playing web content through HDMI and this video is from youtube player in Smart TV. This inability of processing the vertical lines is the reason for which people are complaining about ghosting etc.

It will be interesting to know if this is the case with 7xx7 and 8xx7 series too or is just localized at the 6xx7 series.

I thing that you have enough proof to acknowledge this issue and to state that you are trying to solve it. I am looking forward for a quick solving of this very annoying issue present both in 2D and 3D. In 3D is even more disturbing since the broken lines gain spatial dimensions.

I am looking forward for your answer.

majorusa can you clear something up for me, if you turn off HDNM does the problem go away?

Herzie
09-25-2012, 02:51 PM
Just to let you guys know today the ambilight LED had come loose again. Infocare wanted to take it in for a 10 days repair. That was the last straw for me, so I took the TV back and exchanged it for a LG 47LM860V. Sadly I already miss ambilight, but still picture quality must come first.

Fingers crossed that you guys will have your problems solved.

gstan80
09-25-2012, 04:13 PM
Thanks one more time majousa. Well Philips? Wehre is your answer? I think I will also return the tv. It does not make any sense to wait for something I will never get.. an official answer from your tech experts.

Manuj
09-25-2012, 04:26 PM
Just to let you guys know today the ambilight LED had come loose again. Infocare wanted to take it in for a 10 days repair. That was the last straw for me, so I took the TV back and exchanged it for a LG 47LM860V. Sadly I already miss ambilight, but still picture quality must come first.

Fingers crossed that you guys will have your problems solved.

Same loose ambilight....
Same judder problem that is mostly annoying on 3D (my feeling)

So should I be next to return my TV...

I also just registered to complain about the lack of official statement after one month. I've been following up Majorusa's work (thanks by the way).

mrb1972
09-25-2012, 06:31 PM
Is lg a better picture? Or just better motion?

gstan80
09-26-2012, 07:59 AM
Just to let you guys know today the ambilight LED had come loose again. Infocare wanted to take it in for a 10 days repair. That was the last straw for me, so I took the TV back and exchanged it for a LG 47LM860V. Sadly I already miss ambilight, but still picture quality must come first.

Fingers crossed that you guys will have your problems solved.

Hi Herzie,

Could you please let us know about the other tv you got? Is there any difference? Please PM us about it. Thanks!
G

gstan80
09-26-2012, 08:15 AM
majorusa can you clear something up for me, if you turn off HDNM does the problem go away?

Hi mrb1972,

The problem is gone with Perfect Natural Motion off and you get gosting on everything instead like at a 50hz TV.

majorusa
09-26-2012, 09:31 AM
I second your answer gstan80. The motion without the HDNM is so bad that sometimes I think I can see the individual frames of the picture. I am exaggerating but the judder with HDNM off is really bad.

gstan80
09-26-2012, 10:05 AM
I second your answer gstan80. The motion without the HDNM is so bad that sometimes I think I can see the individual frames of the picture. I am exaggerating but the judder with HDNM off is really bad.

Right! I think any spears moving scene can show clearly the problem..

mojoman
09-26-2012, 11:37 AM
Hi mrb1972,

The problem is gone with Perfect Natural Motion off and you get gosting on everything instead like at a 50hz TV.

Hi GSTAN,

I'm getting so sick and tired of waiting for an answer wether our TV can be fixed or not.

How long time should we give the technicians? When do they expect to give us an official answer?

I'm literally considering returning my TV tomorrow and showing this thread to El Giganten in Fields in CPH and recommend them to not sell this TV to any costumer at all, because it is a rip off!

Philips - Rafe
09-26-2012, 11:43 AM
Hi all,

I can understand you may well be frustrated with the wait, but please know, as of now we are waiting for some further insight from the technical guys.

The issue has been passed on for further investigation, and all of your feedback is really useful and important, so please do keep giving it, but please bear with us while we try to find a solution for you all :)

Best regards,

^Rafe

gstan80
09-26-2012, 12:08 PM
Hi all,

I can understand you may well be frustrated with the wait, but please know, as of now we are waiting for some further insight from the technical guys.

The issue has been passed on for further investigation, and all of your feedback is really useful and important, so please do keep giving it, but please bear with us while we try to find a solution for you all :)

Best regards,

^Rafe

Hi Rafe,

Thank you for finally admitting that the TV has a problem. Since we were waiting already for some time I think we can extend that and give them a chance to fix it. It was obvious that they tried to buy some time but overall I will be happy if they would be able to fix it. I like the TV and would not return it if this can be repaired somehow.

Best regards,
G

mojoman
09-26-2012, 01:11 PM
Hi Rafe,

Thank you for finally admitting that the TV has a problem. Since we were waiting already for some time I think we can extend that and give them a chance to fix it. It was obvious that they tried to buy some time but overall I will be happy if they would be able to fix it. I like the TV and would not return it if this can be repaired somehow.

Best regards,
G

I agree with Gstan. I love the TV, colors, the design, the ambilight etc. So hopefully the problem can be solved.

mrb1972
09-26-2012, 01:55 PM
Hi mrb1972,

The problem is gone with Perfect Natural Motion off and you get gosting on everything instead like at a 50hz TV.

Ok is it possible to turn off PNM but enable clear LCD? I thought that clear LCD helpled with ghosting

Knubbo
09-26-2012, 03:09 PM
Today i got an email from Philips. This is what they said

"I understand that it has been disappointing for you to experience this with your new TV, as the this is a problem that is experienced by more and more customers, I will escalate this before I give you an answer about how we move forward, so that we can find out what it can depend on and how to solve the problem.
If it is so that we have more questions regarding this problem, You will hear from me so i can get more certain information, but as long, as I ask you to wait until I have more clarity in what we can do about your problem.


I have now send complaints to philips sweden about this problem.
So lets here what they have to say about it. I will let you guys now what they tell me.

Knubbo
09-26-2012, 03:11 PM
I also agree. the tv is fantastic if this problem get solved

I agree with Gstan. I love the TV, colors, the design, the ambilight etc. So hopefully the problem can be solved.

Herzie
09-26-2012, 04:57 PM
nice to hear that stuff is happening. The LG that I got does not have this judder problem and the menus are very smooth compared to Philips. I still like the Philips better on a few important aspects: sound, picture and design on the philips is better than the LG in my opinion. I also really miss the ambilight :( Fingers crossed that a solution will appear within two weeks allowing me to take the LG back and get the philips again. Unfortunately the chances of that happening is slim to none I'm afraid :(

graanne
09-28-2012, 11:36 AM
Now I have returned my 6877T. Think I will give Philips a few days to solve these issues before I change brand.

Nuhic
09-28-2012, 04:41 PM
Hello guys.

I have a problem with 47PFL6877T when I am watching a film or someting else over my router and the film is on my laptop.It suddenly happens that it disconect me and I have to try again. Anywon have the same problem?

Problem nr 2 is when I connect my laptop to the tv over HDMI and play a game it happens that some type of line appears some times on the screen like a invisible line anywone that have notice that?

Best Regards

mojoman
09-28-2012, 05:14 PM
Hi all,

I can understand you may well be frustrated with the wait, but please know, as of now we are waiting for some further insight from the technical guys.

The issue has been passed on for further investigation, and all of your feedback is really useful and important, so please do keep giving it, but please bear with us while we try to find a solution for you all :)

Best regards,

^Rafe

Hi Rafe,

Now we have been really patient regarding the very frustrating motion effects issue your users are experiencing with one of your high end products. When can we expect an official answer from Philips, so we know whether we should keep our TV's or not?

One thing is for certain, that your customers won't keep their TV's if the problem doesn't get solved, because this is such a big issue!

I hope to hear from you as soon as possible.

Herzie
09-28-2012, 05:28 PM
Hi Rafe,

Now we have been really patient regarding the very frustrating motion effects issue your users are experiencing with one of your high end products. When can we expect an official answer from Philips, so we know whether we should keep our TV's or not?

One thing is for certain, that your customers won't keep their TV's if the problem doesn't get solved, because this is such a big issue!

I hope to hear from you as soon as possible.

I second this as I will return the LG and get the Philips again if you're able to produce a positive feedback in regards to fixing the problem. But I only have a 14 day timeframe to return the LG.

majorusa
09-28-2012, 06:32 PM
Hello guys.

I have a problem with 47PFL6877T when I am watching a film or someting else over my router and the film is on my laptop.It suddenly happens that it disconect me and I have to try again. Anywon have the same problem?

Problem nr 2 is when I connect my laptop to the tv over HDMI and play a game it happens that some type of line appears some times on the screen like a invisible line anywone that have notice that?

Best Regards

Wrong thread. Please post it in the FW thread here:

http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7770-Your-experiences-with-FW-v133-5-for-6xx7-7xx7-and-8xx7-series-(2012-models)&p=41684#post41684

Pycnopodia
09-30-2012, 06:05 AM
Philips - Benedickte, Please report this thread to a webmaster for cleanup.

gstan80
graanne
mojoman
Knubbo
marnick
Herzie
MrPuzzle

Should check the IP adresses on these user names, most of them if not everyone are the same person.

Its an interesting topic but annoying with so many users from the same person.

graanne
09-30-2012, 03:11 PM
Philips - Benedickte, Please report this thread to a webmaster for cleanup.

gstan80
graanne
mojoman
Knubbo
marnick
Herzie
MrPuzzle

Should check the IP adresses on these user names, most of them if not everyone are the same person.

Its an interesting topic but annoying with so many users from the same person.

Do you think it is strange that more then one person notice a problem if every singel 6xx7 tv got it???

Pycnopodia
09-30-2012, 03:26 PM
Do you think it is strange that more then one person notice a problem if every singel 6xx7 tv got it???

gstan80, So how many people in your household sharing your internet connection owns a philips 6xx7 tv, that you know about? :confused:

Knubbo
09-30-2012, 07:02 PM
Wtf are you talking about we are not the same person.
Philips - Benedickte, Please report this thread to a webmaster for cleanup.

gstan80
graanne
mojoman
Knubbo
marnick
Herzie
MrPuzzle

Should check the IP adresses on these user names, most of them if not everyone are the same person.

Its an interesting topic but annoying with so many users from the same person.

Pycnopodia
09-30-2012, 07:58 PM
gstan80, I think you are investing far too much time in this.. Its a TV and a mid-end model. The 7 and 8 series are better and the 9 series is the high end. You get what you pay for, if the display you bought was perfect it would be priced at the same level as the best displays from Panasonic and Samsung.
Its like you feel you have been ripped off or cheated - have you compared your pfl6877 against Samsung/LG/Panasonic models in the same price range?

You got what you payed for, and then you return the TV set several times and want official answers from Philips for having quality differences in a budget TV compared to their best and most pricey TVs..

I dont want to sound harsh but the truth is there is no problem with the TV. You will be satisfied and happy when you realize you had too high expectations for a budget TV. Yes your TV-set is not perfect, but its still really good and very good looking with brushed aluminium finish.

You are not a victim, and I find it the customer service & support you have received completely astonishing.



Im in the market for a new TV and it has to be a Philips because I really like Ambilight, I would purchase one tomorrow (PFL6007 or PFL6877) if I found a model compatible with norwegian IDTV. Sadly it seems no 2012 models are supported, only 2011 PFLxxx6..

Herzie
10-01-2012, 08:27 AM
Philips - Benedickte, Please report this thread to a webmaster for cleanup.

gstan80
graanne
mojoman
Knubbo
marnick
Herzie
MrPuzzle

Should check the IP adresses on these user names, most of them if not everyone are the same person.

Its an interesting topic but annoying with so many users from the same person.

I know who I am - but who are you?

Philips - Benedickte
10-01-2012, 09:11 AM
Hi all.

The ones of you that experiencing this juddering, could you please send me an PM with the serial number on your TV?

Thank you.
Benedickte

mojoman
10-01-2012, 12:37 PM
Hi all.

The ones of you that experiencing this juddering, could you please send me an PM with the serial number on your TV?

Thank you.
Benedickte

Dear Benedickte,

I will send you my serial number tonight. Could you inform me where I can find the serial number?

Thanks in advance.

Philips - Benedickte
10-01-2012, 01:44 PM
Dear Benedickte,

I will send you my serial number tonight. Could you inform me where I can find the serial number?

Thanks in advance.

Hi Mojoman.

You can find the serial number in these two ways:
1. On a label on the back of your TV.
2. While having TV on (watching TV/ not be in menus), press 1 2 3 6 5 4. You will then get a CSM menu up and you'll find serial number there.

In this menu you can also find other information like software version, mac address, IP- address etc.

Best regards,
Benedickte

jorgensl80
10-01-2012, 02:02 PM
An interesting topic, although I´m a little disappointed that a solution was not found when I came to the end of it all.

I got a 55" 6097T, bought in Norway a week ago, and noticed it big time when watching the first blue ray movie Avatar (using playstation 3 as source). Colors and everything were perfect (after some tweaking), but fast motion were horrible. I have been turning each and every setting on and off for days trying to find a decent compromise - and for me it seems like this is a hardware issue, the TV just hasn't got the juice to process all the image optimization stuff. Turning everything off (noise reduction, clear lcd etc) and leaving Natural Motion set to Minimum kind of works for me. The motion artifacts/ghosting/whatever-it-is-called is barely noticeable.

I think the slow menu navigation combined with the artifacts shown when all image processing is on is a clear indication that the software running on the TV is made for a faster TV with a better processor (which I guess the 7-8-9 series has).

Edit: I will also mention that fast motion is really bad when watching 3D content (Ice Age 3 is the only one tested). Even my kids reacted to it.

mojoman
10-01-2012, 03:05 PM
Hi Mojoman.

You can find the serial number in these two ways:
1. On a label on the back of your TV.
2. While having TV on (watching TV/ not be in menus), press 1 2 3 6 5 4. You will then get a CSM menu up and you'll find serial number there.

In this menu you can also find other information like software version, mac address, IP- address etc.

Best regards,
Benedickte

Dear Benedickte,

Thanks for the information. I will send you my Serial number tonight then.

I'm still very frustrated not getting any official announcement from Philips telling me what is wrong or if the problem ever will be helped? I have sat a deadline, that if I don't will get any official statement from you within a week (Sunday 7th of October), I'll show Elgiganten in Fields (Copenhagen) this thread, and tell them about the bad customer service their customers have received and that I want to return my TV. I also will recommend them to not sell any of these TV's because of the really bad quality compared to the price you pay for it. It's a shame that my Samsung TV from 2006 is performing way better then this Philips TV I just bought. So far it's such a waste of money!

gstan80
10-01-2012, 03:53 PM
Herzie, don't even bother. :)
Have a great one!

Herzie
10-01-2012, 06:24 PM
Herzie, don't even bother. :)
Have a great one!

You're right...

Unfortunately I will not be able to send you my serial number Benedicte as I have returned my television to Elgiganten.

Pycnopodia
10-01-2012, 09:27 PM
Are these motion judder problems also on 46pfl8007 ?

That TV has 3 sided Ambilight like 6877 and Perfect Pixel HD imaging technology, and a faster refresh rate. Maybe thats enough to eliminate the problems related to motion judder?

Knubbo
10-01-2012, 09:42 PM
I dont now
Are these motion judder problems also on 46pfl8007 ?

That TV has 3 sided Ambilight like 6877 and Perfect Pixel HD imaging technology, and a faster refresh rate. Maybe thats enough to eliminate the problems related to motion judder?

Knubbo
10-04-2012, 07:50 AM
Anyy news or progress with this issue yet ?

mojoman
10-04-2012, 02:07 PM
Hi Mojoman.

You can find the serial number in these two ways:
1. On a label on the back of your TV.
2. While having TV on (watching TV/ not be in menus), press 1 2 3 6 5 4. You will then get a CSM menu up and you'll find serial number there.

In this menu you can also find other information like software version, mac address, IP- address etc.

Best regards,
Benedickte

Hi Benedickte,

I have no understanding what so ever, for how you can just ignore my message for days.

I asked you a simple question and received no reply. I've been asking you approx. 10 times the past month whether we can expect an official answer about if you'll be able to solve the motion effects problem or not. Additionally I've asked approx. 10 times when we can expect an official answer to the previous question.

To be honest with you, Philips/you'reliterally pissing your loyal customers off by acting like this and I have no respect for Philips any more. In this case Philips has provided the worst customer service you ever could have dreamed off. You're acting like amateurs.

As I told you previously I'm running out of patience and getting more and more frustrated every time i turn my TV on and have to see the bad motion effects (juddering/ghosting). If I don't get an answer from you I will return my TV the 8th of October and tell my local store about the bad service and big motion effects problem on this model.

Manuj
10-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Hi Benedickte,

I have no understanding what so ever, for how you can just ignore my message for days.

I asked you a simple question and received no reply. I've been asking you approx. 10 times the past month whether we can expect an official answer about if you'll be able to solve the motion effects problem or not. Additionally I've asked approx. 10 times when we can expect an official answer to the previous question.

To be honest with you, Philips/you'reliterally pissing your loyal customers off by acting like this and I have no respect for Philips any more. In this case Philips has provided the worst customer service you ever could have dreamed off. You're acting like amateurs.

As I told you previously I'm running out of patience and getting more and more frustrated every time i turn my TV on and have to see the bad motion effects (juddering/ghosting). If I don't get an answer from you I will return my TV the 8th of October and tell my local store about the bad service and big motion effects problem on this model.

Maybe we should gather and inform/warn people in forum, comments in blogs, comments in panel reviews, ...
This way we inform potential customers, and that might be putting some more pressure on Philips.

I'm not yet as upset as you are, but still on the disappointment line that a renowned brand is not dealing with those matters professionnaly. I'm sure Philips has a different approach with its own suppliers (when Philips is the customer).

Maybe it's time to remind Philips policy (found in General Business Principle, commitment to customers) :

Philips is driven to improve people’s lives. Its goal is to constantly delight each customer with breakthroughs both large and small.To this end, the company seeks to maintain an ongoing dialogue with its customers. Philips is committed to listen to and learn from them, so that it is able to design and deliver the solutions they really want and need. Philips will always deal with its customers in a fair and forthright manner, maintaining the highest levels of integrity.

_Stephan
10-05-2012, 02:28 PM
As Ali noticed, I am also skeptical about the whole thing. Benedickte is good to know that my current software ver is 132.5.3. As far as I now , tv runs on the latest one.
What I have noticed: the sympthoms are much more present and worse when you have resolution under full HD. However, it is really disturbing to have that even on HD channels and/or Blue Ray.

[...]



hi Gstan, I think this contribution hits the nail on it's head.

Outside this forum (when I mention this issue) I get the same sort of responses from other Philips users as Benedickte here above. A bit like: "There is always some juddering in exterme situations and/or with poor input".

But like you said, it is disturbing it's not only in extreme situations. It's happening in quite normal situations as well. And also with very proper input sources like HD Television and BluRay. It just happens way too often, and the television manages motions really poor. Much worse then my previous 6 year old LCD television.

So it's the 'acceptable to have some juddering' versus 'unacceptable to have a lot of juddering' discussion. And only herein this forum I find other users who do experience the same as me, that this is at an 'unacceptable' level.

Unlucky for us, we are having a real hard time to prove that this is not the acceptable some juddering, but the unacceptable juddering. Unless we could invite others into our living room and spend an evening watching TV with us.
Since we can't seem to get our problem across (which is frustrating), it doesn't seem to get resolved (which is even more frustrating) I can fully understand mojoman's response.

Cause this is all just very frustrating!

_Stephan
10-05-2012, 02:38 PM
One thing for the readers in this topic (I hope it doesn't add frustration, but might explain some slow responding. Earlier this year Philips sold it's TV division to China, the Chinese company paying to use the Philips brand. Some I'm not sure whether Benedicte currently liaise with his 'old' Philips colleagues for the 2012 range like he did for the 2011 and before models. Or that he now has to turn to a complete new division from another company somewhere far away.

source (http://bizmology.hoovers.com/2012/02/24/philips-electronics-sells-tv-division-to-china/)

Manuj
10-05-2012, 02:59 PM
But like you said, it is disturbing it's not only in extreme situations. It's happening in quite normal situations as well.
[...]
Unlucky for us, we are having a real hard time to prove that this is not the acceptable some juddering, but the unacceptable juddering.

Let me also remind that Philips is Marketing (boasting?) about PMR, sharpness, and other "award winning picture performance". Copy/pasted from their website :
Perfect Motion Rate (PMR) creates extreme motion sharpness for clear and vibrant images in fast action movies. The higher the PMR number the more frame refreshments per second. Movement will look smooth and natural.

Our attitude would most probably be different with another brand releasing entry-price product. I'd like to get what I paid for (not more, not less).

And we've just been asking for an official statement for weeks and weeks up to now. They could well state their Q&A and technical department have not seen any defect yet following internal analysis (lasting for roughly 1.5 month until now). Or communicate with internal action items (firmware rework, roadmap for releasing a correction, ...)

mrb1972
10-05-2012, 03:43 PM
Are you all guys with motion issues using pfl6877 model? I have had the pfl6007 for a couple of days and have not noticed yet anything.

Can anyone suggest a film/scene that shows the problems up well so I can see if mine suffers from the same issues?

Philips
10-05-2012, 03:49 PM
Dear all,

Just to let you (again) know: we are currently looking into this issue, it has been escalated to development. But do not expect a solution "with the snap of a finger"! This must be thoroughly investigated, and that unfortunately takes (a lot of) time!

We greatly value your feedback and always take it seriously, but we do not have for all cases ready-made answers or solutions. Often we even have to involve our IC-makers to help us in finding solutions (time, time, time...). So, until we come up with a possible solution, I'm afraid you have to be patient.

To show that we take your feedback seriously: we have weekly meetings between the forum mod's, our callcenters, and development to discuss all your posts and see where we must/can help. Although the forum is initially set up as a user-to-user platform (users helping each other), in serious cases we will of course step in and look for satisfactory solutions.


Regards,
JuAn

majorusa
10-05-2012, 05:35 PM
Dear JuAn.

Thank you for taking our feed-back seriously. It means that you are serious about your client satisfaction. How I see the situation:
- the behavior reported here is a bug affecting all 6xx7 series and this is pretty serious, dev team should be involved, FW must be addressed and/or HW parts to be changed
OR
- the behavior affects a small number of sets and there is the easy solution, change the darn things with new ones not exhibiting this issue.

From your answer one might believe that we are in the first case. I must say that I tested all the 6007k I could find in the store in my town and all were showing the same judder.

As clients we paid the full amount of the TV price at the moment of purchase and did not take the Tv at home and told you we will test it and report to you our findings and eventually pay you the price of the set. The fact that you the mods have weekly meetings has little to none significance to us. The only thing that truly has significance to us is to solve the bugs your TV has. And they are plenty.

There is more than one month since you had the issue brought to your attention. One a half month later the only answer we have is that it will take a long long time to fix it. And you really think that asking for patience is enough?

Man, your TV section is due to fail big time. And is a shame because the picture on your Tv is really good but you have a sub-par development team and a lousy Quality Assurance Manager. Please prove me I am wrong.

I am a sad customer now. I paid a lot of money for a product that is below my 4 years old 9603. But we always have the review sites of all the stores and tech forums to tell our story.

gstan80
10-07-2012, 11:11 AM
Hi guys! Did you miss my posts? :)

One more things to consider even dough it is nothing compared to our main problem.
After we did the last two updates (last one being 0.133.5.0), the TV menu already working like.. it takes even more time to load and respond. It takes ages to go to Perfect Natural Motion setting screen...

But like this is not enough, the last one is not responsive menu at all.

Scenarios:

1. I try to start the tv from the remote - the red indicator of the tv works but the TV does not react at all.
2. I am running on VGA and try to go to TV directly from the remote tab - tv screen goes black and the tv does not respond at all.
3. TV runs on "TV" and I try to go to channel menu by hitting the LIST tab on the remote. Red indicator works but the TV has no reaction at all.
4. Time needed to go on the Perfect Natural Motion settings screen: 15-18 seconds depending on how fast is the menu reacting to commands.
5. click to to to Perfect Natural Motion settings screen: 18 seconds

Philips? Do you copy? :)

Video for all of the above will follow.
Regarding of what you said in the lasts post. Sorry but we pay all the money at once. How would be to change places and let us have the TV following that we will decide to pay whenever we consider we can. Perhaps today perhaps in two months time and so on..

Move a little bit faster and show us some respect. Give us the money back plus compensation, or change the TV with a good working one if there is any.

Show us that you are who you pretend you are.

mrb1972
10-07-2012, 11:27 AM
Hi guys! Did you miss my posts? :)

One more things to consider even dough it is nothing compared to our main problem.
After we did the last two updates (last one being 0.133.5.0), the TV menu already working like.. it takes even more time to load and respond. It takes ages to go to Perfect Natural Motion setting screen...

But like this is not enough, the last one is not responsive menu at all.

Scenarios:

1. I try to start the tv from the remote - the red indicator of the tv works but the TV does not react at all.
2. I am running on VGA and try to go to TV directly from the remote tab - tv screen goes black and the tv does not respond at all.
3. TV runs on "TV" and I try to go to channel menu by hitting the LIST tab on the remote. Red indicator works but the TV has no reaction at all.
4. Time needed to go on the Perfect Natural Motion settings screen: 15-18 seconds depending on how fast is the menu reacting to commands.
5. click to to to Perfect Natural Motion settings screen: 18 seconds

Philips? Do you copy? :)

Video for all of the above will follow.
Regarding of what you said in the lasts post. Sorry but we pay all the money at once. How would be to change places and let us have the TV following that we will decide to pay whenever we consider we can. Perhaps today perhaps in two months time and so on..

Move a little bit faster and show us some respect. Give us the money back plus compensation, or change the TV with a good working one if there is any.

Show us that you are who you pretend you are.

I found that the latest update made the menus quicker to scroll around, I dont have to wait anything like 18second to get to the perfect natural motion settings. Mine in the 6007 model

gstan80
10-07-2012, 11:46 AM
What can I say? Luck you. I will come back with a video so you can see that and how "super fast" is the menu working.
If you could do the same will be good.

Best,
G


I found that the latest update made the menus quicker to scroll around, I dont have to wait anything like 18second to get to the perfect natural motion settings. Mine in the 6007 model

gstan80
10-07-2012, 12:04 PM
Here is the video about the neceseray time from HOME MENU screen to Perfect Natural Motion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df35ltcYqew&feature=share&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw

Is there any shortcut I have no idea about?

Best,
G.

mrb1972
10-07-2012, 08:04 PM
Here is the video about the neceseray time from HOME MENU screen to Perfect Natural Motion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df35ltcYqew&feature=share&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw

Is there any shortcut I have no idea about?

Best,
G.

Ok that looks the same as mine, menu speed isn't too bad it's the number of clicks required to get there, shortcuts are needed I agree

Manuj
10-08-2012, 09:07 AM
Dear JuAn.
[...]
[...]


@majorusa
I'm in the same line in every single thing you wrote in your post.
Just have to add that I'm also one of us experiencing a badly fixed ambilight (just for their Quality meetings).

@Juan & Philips
Thanks, this is first time I understand this is taken seriously and escalated.
I think we have proven to be patient and that identification of the root cause must be completed (7th week, so can't be talking about "snap of the finger" for identification of the defect).
Having some clear feedback about progress & action plan would make me (I can only talk for myself) satisfied as of today. Unfortunately your message has not much valuable information (I understand communication is sensitive, there must be another meeting for this), and I feel our complaints are still legitimate.

I must say I don't care about your internal processes and how you deal with nonconformities. This is your job and the forum is surely not the place to also discuss how this defect passed development and Q&A (PMR being one of the highest functionnality as we all know). I also believe each person at Philips is doing their best, but this forum is the only way for us, customers who paid for your products, to have some pressure. We can't rely on contractual agreements as can be found in the industry.

I believed the marketing promotion of PMR, as well as other specs that are mostly fulfilled. If I had noticed the judder, would I have bought this LCD ? No.

I'm concerned to get a clear situation as I feel I'm experiencing a major product defect (devlpt as well as Q&A defect).

You're talking about time to get a solution, can you share what the root causes are ?
Can we all benefit from an extended warranty period from Philips ? this would represent a factual action that you care for us, customers. Most of us have lost 13% of our one-year warranty.

couto27
10-13-2012, 01:28 AM
thanks for all the sharings guys, was a great contribute, i already pass this information in some forums, expect to make a huge snow ball.

anyone has philips shares..please sell now.

my concern start with audio issue, but looks like this tv is all buggy.

Fdc
10-15-2012, 08:51 AM
I also bought the pfl476877t and is quite satisfied except for the socalled natural perfect motion, wich works very poorly, with fast movements. As an example of this, you can try setting the natural motion to max and then watch the scene from Avatar, when Jake takes his avatar running, theres a lot of blurring/unstabe picture effects around him.
Another example is in the 20th century fox logo, when the projector lights comes in front of the text ("century").
Really hopes this is just af software error wich can be fixed, if it isn't, well Philips you really have to say something!

mrb1972
10-15-2012, 09:37 AM
I also bought the pfl476877t and is quite satisfied except for the socalled natural perfect motion, wich works very poorly, with fast movements. As an example of this, you can try setting the natural motion to max and then watch the scene from Avatar, when Jake takes his avatar running, theres a lot of blurring/unstabe picture effects around him.
Another example is in the 20th century fox logo, when the projector lights comes in front of the text ("century").
Really hopes this is just af software error wich can be fixed, if it isn't, well Philips you really have to say something!

I hadn't even noticed that on the 20th century fox logo until you pointed it out, the problem goes away once the motion system is disabled.

I know this motion systems can cause problems on all LEDs, I think most experts turn them off, I hope they can improve it.

Also the backlight system is only usable in standard mode, best picture and best power show visable dimming between scenes, hope they can tweak that too

There is a lot of this tv to like, just needs a some improvement in the above areas

james87
10-15-2012, 11:18 AM
hello! after buying a 37pfl6007h, I can not set it in optimal conditions. I have a problem with the movement of the hands, suffers as relentizaciones, fuzzy. The HD Natural Motion I have it in the middle while the engine is off mpeg. someone could hand me a good configuration?
thank you very much for your attention

mojoman
10-15-2012, 06:55 PM
So what you are saying is that we shall wait for how long? Come with an estimate. If we are talking months, nobody on this forum will wait and everybody will return their TV's!


Dear all,

Just to let you (again) know: we are currently looking into this issue, it has been escalated to development. But do not expect a solution "with the snap of a finger"! This must be thoroughly investigated, and that unfortunately takes (a lot of) time!

We greatly value your feedback and always take it seriously, but we do not have for all cases ready-made answers or solutions. Often we even have to involve our IC-makers to help us in finding solutions (time, time, time...). So, until we come up with a possible solution, I'm afraid you have to be patient.

To show that we take your feedback seriously: we have weekly meetings between the forum mod's, our callcenters, and development to discuss all your posts and see where we must/can help. Although the forum is initially set up as a user-to-user platform (users helping each other), in serious cases we will of course step in and look for satisfactory solutions.


Regards,
JuAn

gstan80
10-16-2012, 10:22 AM
One more..
Philips 47PFL6877 MENU PROBLEMS

Please see the video.. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0djwxg7ZeI&feature=share&list=UUnwV9pupLJG7Pk4jrx64Lyw

DadGommit
10-18-2012, 08:46 AM
Hi all,

A bit worrying topic I must say since I have 47PFL6877 on order myself! On other hand, of the big number 6***-units sold, just about 10 or 12 people complaining that hard about it on here. Doesn't that say more about them then about the TV's I ask myself?...;) How bad will it be, taking into consideration it's a mid-range TV, stuffed with a truckload of features and options? IMHO, issues mentioned are bugs, not nonconformities.

Is the 47PFL6887 really that bad that I better cancel it, pay 400 euros more, and buy 46PFL8000? Or should I rather first try 6887 for myself and then decide if it's flaws are that disturbing to me? I find the glasses for passive 3D much nicer and more comfortable then the ones for active 3D for instance... I'll keep you posted about how the story ends here! ;)

Regards!

gstan80
10-18-2012, 09:41 AM
Reasons I bought this for and I did not returned yet.

1. colors
2. contrast
3. passive 3d
4. smart capabilities even if not quite useful and disturbing due to long loading times and reduce nr of apps
5. the keyboard on the remote backside - a solution above all the others even if response time is an issue and sometimes it does not take command on key pressing. Would be very useful if would have a some strong apps to work with and faster browsing experience on smart tv mode.
6. Ambilight - truly their biggest hit along with colors and contrast.
7. quite decent frame even if LG overpass them with the frame-less models.

Reasons I am not happy with the model and the company response on it's issues:

1.The motion problems are quite disturbing especially for somebody that is picture quality educated and is really expecting to get what it was promised.
2. The tv sometimes does not react on commands like Power UP, source selector..
3. Hard menu navigation due to loading time and long route to some options.
4. Company not admitting problems (quite normal in a world where you have to survive) that I have noticed from the very 1st day I got the TV. I assume they still have a Quality Control dep. and also lots of tests before launching a product on the market. Obvious the released the product knowing it's problems very well and they bought lot of time probably to work on issues in the meantime. We have had about 4 or 5 upgrades since July and nothing changed. I feel no impact improvement..

I think this is a hardwired problem that Philips has to deal with and if they will do some callbacks like any major and respectful manufacturer will do, they will manage to wash the dirt created so far.

Since Philips is not Toyota, I assume this will be hard to achieve.

G.



Hi all,

A bit worrying topic I must say since I have 47PFL6877 on order myself! On other hand, of the big number 6***-units sold, just about 10 or 12 people complaining that hard about it on here. Doesn't that say more about them then about the TV's I ask myself?...;) How bad will it be, taking into consideration it's a mid-range TV, stuffed with a truckload of features and options? IMHO, issues mentioned are bugs, not nonconformities.

Is the 47PFL6887 really that bad that I better cancel it, pay 400 euros more, and buy 46PFL8000? Or should I rather first try 6887 for myself and then decide if it's flaws are that disturbing to me? I find the glasses for passive 3D much nicer and more comfortable then the ones for active 3D for instance... I'll keep you posted about how the story ends here! ;)

Regards!

Philips - Benedickte
10-18-2012, 11:54 AM
One more..
Philips 47PFL6877 MENU PROBLEMS

Please see the video.. :)




Hi Gstan.

When you are pressing these buttons (sound + source), can you hear any clicking sound from the remote control?

Benedickte

gstan80
10-18-2012, 12:06 PM
Yes.. they are clicking :))))) I make sure I press all the way each time but yiu can hear that in the video too..

Herzie
10-18-2012, 12:09 PM
Yes.. they are clicking :))))) I make sure I press all the way each time but yiu can hear that in the video too..

Don't you just love being regarded as an impecil....? :rolleyes:

Moviefan
10-18-2012, 10:14 PM
Hi All,

As a potential buyer (interested in the 37 or 42pfl6xx7) I'm following this thread with interest to see if the motion problems will be resolved (soon).

On a German site I found a user reviewing this tv with the remark that he solved the motion artifacts by changing the settings. He indicated the following settings:

for bluray:
Lebhaft
Kontrast BL 95
Farbe 76
Schärfe 3
Rauschunterdrückung Maximum
MPEG-Artefakteunterdrückung Minimum
Perfekt Natural Motion Aus
Clear LCD Ein
Erweiterte Schärfe Ein
Dynamic Contrast Minimum
Dynamische Hintergrundbeleuchtung Optimales Bild
Farboptimierung Maximum

Sat (SD & HD) : habe ich Schärfe 2 und Perfekt Natural Motion auf Minimum

It's German and I haven't translated it, but I think it will be clear for most of you. Would some of you be willing to give it a try and see if these settings improve the resulting picture with fast moving objects?

Thx,
Moviefan

mrb1972
10-18-2012, 10:40 PM
Hi All,

As a potential buyer (interested in the 37 or 42pfl6xx7) I'm following this thread with interest to see if the motion problems will be resolved (soon).

On a German site I found a user reviewing this tv with the remark that he solved the motion artifacts by changing the settings. He indicated the following settings:

for bluray:
Lebhaft
Kontrast BL 95
Farbe 76
Schärfe 3
Rauschunterdrückung Maximum
MPEG-Artefakteunterdrückung Minimum
Perfekt Natural Motion Aus
Clear LCD Ein
Erweiterte Schärfe Ein
Dynamic Contrast Minimum
Dynamische Hintergrundbeleuchtung Optimales Bild
Farboptimierung Maximum

Sat (SD & HD) : habe ich Schärfe 2 und Perfekt Natural Motion auf Minimum

It's German and I haven't translated it, but I think it will be clear for most of you. Would some of you be willing to give it a try and see if these settings improve the resulting picture with fast moving objects?

Thx,
Moviefan

Looking at that all he has done is turn off the motion system - not really a fix, just turning off the option that causes the problems

Moviefan
10-19-2012, 09:15 AM
Looking at that all he has done is turn off the motion system - not really a fix, just turning off the option that causes the problems

I suspect you are right, still curious though. If he did see the motion artifacts, he must have seen the judder as well, but indicated that with these settings he got rid of the issues.

He kept Clear LCD at On, and I wonder : is there some relation with noise-filters, sharpnes, dynamic contrast etc. Whilst I'm not too hopeful about a 'golden' combination that actually works to some extend - you never know. Assuming this will not be fixed overnight, to what limit can you keep this under control?

Another question I have: if you turn it all off, how bad is the judder. Is it like a standard 50Hz tv, or worse?

Something else is that the pfl6877 is 600PMR and the 6007 is 400PMR. However, it does not look like there are less issues on the 6877...isn't that odd?

thx,
Moviefan

Manuj
10-19-2012, 03:38 PM
Hi all,

A bit worrying topic I must say since I have 47PFL6877 on order myself! On other hand, of the big number 6***-units sold, just about 10 or 12 people complaining that hard about it on here. Doesn't that say more about them then about the TV's I ask myself?...;)
[...]

Well, I personaly read those threads every 2 days for weeks before registering and complaining. So there are more readers than active people... as usual in everyday life. I can give you some other forum with people also complaining and waiting for corrections.

I knew there was some bugs, but I underestimated the 2D 3D judder problem. And I'm concerned this can't be corrected without lessening performance on other aspects.

I used to tell interested people to wait and see what correction(s) will come from Philips (because of other good points of the TV, same as gstan80). After roughly 8 weeks, I now would recommend to look into other brands as well, especially for those who don't care about passive 3D.

bugmenot
10-21-2012, 07:46 PM
Hi Philips!

I bought this TV (pfl6877t) from Elgiganten in Sweden some months ago. Due to a lot of travelling I couldn't test it until this week. I noticed this problem with fast motion scenes and it's really disturbing. I actually don't want to keep this tv if this is not fixed, but I can't return it to Elgiganten since I bought it more than 30 days ago.

Philips, are you working on fixing this? I would not have expected such an expensive TV to have this serious defect. It's really that bad and you must prioritize fixing this issue.

james87
10-22-2012, 09:44 AM
hello. I would like to provide you with a list of rulings bearing the tv. spoke on behalf of a very important forum of Spain and we have collected many failures. I hope you have in mind after the big money paid. and so they can fix it in future updates.

Tv 1 presents the fast Scenes difuminaciones especially rapid movements of hands even with odd shadows. also always seen in a football game on the ball.

2nd TV in specific cases while running is stuck and does not respond to the remote control keys. must be removed to fix the electric current.

3rd after reboot where PHILIPS appears rather large, in the top left aparace few lines ugly and unattractive for the brand.

4th include quick access to switch modes tv game mode. is very slow now the process to switch between both menus.

5 º to exchange audio. not support DTS then that could change languages ​​or formats.

6th smart tv totally disastrous hardly any applications and less in Spanish. besides the fluidity of navigation is very very slow.

7th sometimes creates the 3D double images and artifacts.

I think this would be it. would be the most outstanding image quality in terms of fast motion judder effects with ghost ... the natural motion works really bad. All these failures are with the latest update installed 000,133,005,000, 09/03/2012

expect an answer, thank you very much for your attention.
a greeting

mrb1972
10-23-2012, 10:11 AM
I read this on another forum today, not sure how true it is as I cant find the source -

"Post on Facebook about 5 hours ago:

"Yes, there will be a new firmware release soon. But nobody benefits if we have to postpone a given release date due to unexpected Necessary adaptations. That's why we do not provide explicit firmware release dates on our support channels. Please keep using our Support Forum. The moderators will inform all users immediately if our engineers give green light for the release. We kindly ask for your understanding.

Kind regards,
PHILIPS_Consumer Care "

DadGommit
10-23-2012, 10:44 AM
Hello all,

Alright, in the meanwhile I've cracked under the pressure of all your complaints and upgraded my order from 47pfl6887 to 46pfl8007 though I will have to live with actief 3D. 46PFL8007 Also has some other video processing features but is running same software so I will put it to the tests mentioned on here and let u know my findings. With specific differences you/we may be able to determine which are soft- and which are hardware related problems.

Regards.

Philips - Benedickte
10-23-2012, 04:34 PM
Hi All.

Could you please set the PNM = Minimum.

When done this, please report the result back.

Thank you.
Regards,
Benedickte

axel7
10-23-2012, 06:21 PM
I follow the forum because I want to buy this mostly for ambilight I like. I checked one of elgiganten and the picture was bad just like many describe. Wondering how you can release it for sale at all? It seems that Philips has not test department, but we consumers are the first to test. Philips is bad with updates, I have stereo Streamium MCI298/12 for over a year and this still not working properly after all updates (and its just simple stereo, mp3 player, has no video).
I have some feeling that there are hardware problems involved and the firmware does not solve all problems, but we'll see.
Anyway if the problem with the picture dissolves and the price goes down below 1000 euros (1400 euros for the mid-TV in 2012?????) I should buy this television.

mrb1972
10-23-2012, 07:00 PM
Hi All.

Could you please set the PNM = Minimum.

When done this, please report the result back.

Thank you.
Regards,
Benedickte

I already do, only "off" gets rid of the problem

NaC
10-23-2012, 07:27 PM
Hi All.

Could you please set the PNM = Minimum.

When done this, please report the result back.

Thank you.
Regards,
Benedickte


Benedickte Hi,
I have the 42pfl6007 tv, the problem is still there even after set the PNM into minimum value.
The test was performed with HD movie to remove all potential quality issues which are not related to the TV itself.
As I mentioned, in HD movie which should be the best quality without potential picture quality issues, the results are the same. The only way is to put it "off", but then the picture is terrible.
Hope this is not related to hardware issues, and that philips will fix it in the next software update.
Can you please confirm this is not related to hardware issues? (and that we all have some hope...)
I appreciate your help,
Thanks

Knubbo
10-23-2012, 09:08 PM
Alredy tried that. Still have the same problem
Hi All.

Could you please set the PNM = Minimum.

When done this, please report the result back.

Thank you.
Regards,
Benedickte

Manuj
10-24-2012, 10:34 AM
Benedickte Hi,
I have the 42pfl6007 tv, the problem is still there even after set the PNM into minimum value.
The test was performed with HD movie to remove all potential quality issues which are not related to the TV itself.
As I mentioned, in HD movie which should be the best quality without potential picture quality issues, the results are the same. The only way is to put it "off", but then the picture is terrible.
Hope this is not related to hardware issues, and that philips will fix it in the next software update.
Can you please confirm this is not related to hardware issues? (and that we all have some hope...)
I appreciate your help,
Thanks

Same for me.
I have always set it to minimum and would appreciate to get feedback and thus little consideration.
Are we still trying to reproduce the problem at Philips for the last 9 1/2 weeks (first post of the current thread) ?

A good/easy way to see the problem is to keep one of those windows when changing an image setting (that gray window which stays upfront to let you set each setting either to Off/Min/Max). When those windows are on top of the video, the edges and corners are very poor when background moves. Or you can get "bee movie" and try to follow bee antennae... good luck !

Zebbie
10-24-2012, 02:38 PM
Hi Philips!

Any progress on solving this? I'm currently very unhappy with this expensive purchase (13.995 swedish SEK) from Elgiganten. Picture quality in fast motion scenes are horrible. I actually wanted to buy a samsung that has got great reviews, but it was out of stock and the salesman convinced me to buy this philips instead. Also this TV is full of other bugs like unstable SmartTV (slow navigation, crashes/reboots], my usb 3.0 stick not recognised (older usb 2.0 stick works], remote sometimes not responding to certain commands.

The only good things about this TV is that it has nice colors and no backlight bleeding. Also like the ambilight feature. But the bugs makes this TV impossible to like.

I really don't understand how you can sell it like this. I wished I never bought it and if I could I would return it for a full refund, unfortunately it has gone more than 30 days since purchase and I dont have the package it came in anymore so I guess that's not an option.

Zebbie
10-25-2012, 05:34 PM
I installed the latest update today. Problem not solved. Very unhappy.

mojoman
10-27-2012, 07:21 PM
Dear Benedickte,

Could you please come with an honest answer now: are we ever gonna get the problem solved with this TV? This issue is really starting to freak all your customers out and it litterally looks like that the priority this issue has in Philips technician team is very close to 0%.

You are giving your customers the worst customer service I ever have experienced.

For probably the 50th time in this forum - best regards,

Mojoman



Hi All.

Could you please set the PNM = Minimum.

When done this, please report the result back.

Thank you.
Regards,
Benedickte

Manuj
10-30-2012, 11:11 AM
Dear Benedickte,

Could you please come with an honest answer now: are we ever gonna get the problem solved with this TV? This issue is really starting to freak all your customers out and it litterally looks like that the priority this issue has in Philips technician team is very close to 0%.
[...]

Benedickte can't tell much, this is Philips/TPV as a whole (or hole!) that won't tell a thing.
I wish Philips would fulfill their official/online commitments (fair communication with customers to name just one), but this is acting as a cash company with little (or no) corporate core values making false marketing statements. Sad !

But now that we know, the only do-able thing is to share & warn other potential customers.
As money seems to be the only way to have little pressure.
Then I don't want to hear about supporting such European companies (headquarters at least).
How can TPV fight when customers get no consideration... These Smart TVs being their mainstream if I got it well...

Philips - Benedickte
10-30-2012, 01:36 PM
Hi All.

I would need some more information from most of you guys.
could you all please provide me with following:

1.What files are you experincing the juddering (movie, scene)?
2.What source do you use (BD, broadcast, HD, SD, USB)?
2a. If Bluray, what model/model number is this?
What settings are used?
3.Which input (HDMI-?, USB, IP)?
4. Please confirm you have updated to the latest SW (150.48.9)


Best regards,
Benedickte

mrb1972
10-30-2012, 02:08 PM
Hi All.

I would need some more information from most of you guys.
could you all please provide me with following:

1.What files are you experincing the juddering (movie, scene)?
2.What source do you use (BD, broadcast, HD, SD, USB)?
2a. If Bluray, what model/model number is this?
What settings are used?
3.Which input (HDMI-?, USB, IP)?
4. Please confirm you have updated to the latest SW (150.48.9)


Best regards,
Benedickte

It makes no difference, for me, sky hd - hdmi1, ps3 blu ray - hdmi2 - very very simple test for you guys, any 20th century fox film, just watch the 20th century fox logo with the spotlights, as the beam crosses the text you will see the picture break up.

Regarding 150.48.9 it makes no difference to the problem but this firmware is no good as it adds a new problem of horizontal flicker with dynamic backlight enabled, as stated in a PM i sent to you.

Manuj
10-30-2012, 04:22 PM
This is a joke, isn't it ? This thread is 11 pages long with several examples that you never objected as not showing any problem. You admitted this was escalated to development if I recall well.

Vertical lines are one of the worst because they just disappear.
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7088-47pfl6877t&p=41509&viewfull=1#post41509
Bee Movie in blueray is real bad as we can't follow bee antennae.

Anyway, I will try to find a source that can be shared with you at philips.
And possibly also post the result with my HD camera, just in case.
I begin to know when this will happen.

Also while playing, any source in the background, leaving the grayish setting window ON (the one to select the OFF/MIN/MAX setting for a given parameter), will most probably show you bad corners and bad sides of the window. In that case the source of the window is.... philips menu.

Don't you have some reference videos to test&develop HDNM ?

Philips - Benedickte
10-30-2012, 04:49 PM
This is a joke, isn't it ? This thread is 11 pages long with several examples that you never objected as not showing any problem. You admitted this was escalated to development if I recall well.

Vertical lines are one of the worst because they just disappear.
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7088-47pfl6877t&p=41509&viewfull=1#post41509
Bee Movie in blueray is real bad as we can't follow bee antennae.

Anyway, I will try to find a source that can be shared with you at philips.
And possibly also post the result with my HD camera, just in case.
I begin to know when this will happen.

Also while playing, any source in the background, leaving the grayish setting window ON (the one to select the OFF/MIN/MAX setting for a given parameter), will most probably show you bad corners and bad sides of the window. In that case the source of the window is.... philips menu.

Don't you have some reference videos to test&develop HDNM ?


Hi Manuj.


Could you please confirm to me what model you have?

I can understand your frustration, and yes we do have videos, but these are mainly from same people. Some of you have been very good posting detailed, this is also the reson why i said most of you and not all.
The info mrb1972 is very precise info that we can check on.
If you have a specific scene from Bee movie, example can be; around 30 min in you can see that we can't follow bee's antennae.

Regards,
Benedickte

majorusa
10-30-2012, 10:05 PM
Hi All.

I would need some more information from most of you guys.
could you all please provide me with following:

1.What files are you experincing the juddering (movie, scene)?
2.What source do you use (BD, broadcast, HD, SD, USB)?
2a. If Bluray, what model/model number is this?
What settings are used?
3.Which input (HDMI-?, USB, IP)?
4. Please confirm you have updated to the latest SW (150.48.9)


Best regards,
Benedickte

Benedikte, I am very dissapointed. After so much time, so many posts you came back with the same BS.

I will answer though but rest assured that I will start giving bad reviews with links to the youtube videos posted here that shows the issue very clear.
1. All files, including TV, internet, youtube, Philips TV menus, etc.
2. all sources produce the same issue.
2a. LG BDP 620
3. all digital inputs
4. 150.48.13 - but according to your change log the firmware 150.48.9 does not improve picture so what is the point in asking it?

Please stop this nonsense. The fact that you are reading about this bug from few people is because there are few people writing on this thread which is misplaced in the reviews section. Please read also the FW thread.

I gave you several videos showing the issue. How many videos more do you need. 10, 20, 100? Give a number, I will upload them on youtube with the Title, "Philips TV 6007 series, faulty picture" then who will search Philips TV will find 100 videos with this issue.

Have you tested the youtube link? I will post it again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDzcnxglmIE&list=FLVL_NRuiX7lPoF5jB9fcjWg&index=3&feature=plpp_video

It is not extreme. It shows some vertical lines moving on the screen. The HDNM cannot make those lines fluid?

I have the feeling that all that you do there is to postpone indefinitely the solving of this issue. Please prove me wrong.

Manuj
10-31-2012, 09:37 AM
Hi Manuj.


Could you please confirm to me what model you have?

I can understand your frustration, and yes we do have videos, but these are mainly from same people. Some of you have been very good posting detailed, this is also the reson why i said most of you and not all.
The info mrb1972 is very precise info that we can check on.
If you have a specific scene from Bee movie, example can be; around 30 min in you can see that we can't follow bee's antennae.

Regards,
Benedickte

I have a 47pfl6007.

Yes, I am very frustrated, and still was yesterday evening when again deciding if I was the bad guy asking too much.
Finally no, TV is real bad and by far my smartphone is best in that item (it keeps the details!!).
I did not film because there was nothing new from what was posted here in this thread.
I am not stuck andlooking at 2 cms from the TV.

I have tried 3 different players (including the one embedded in the TV), usually I am streaming, but I also tried several time with a PC with local file. I then found out that several people had reported the problem here and that the TV had the defect.

In bee movie it takes a few seconds to see the problem (as in other films, animation are worst in them because thin lines and edges are always present).
First 10 minutes are real bad, moving background makes all details disappear. There is a scene when Barry gets into a car. This is a close view of the 2 bees, moving scene = antennae stuttering.
At around 7:00, when pollen boys are coming, the camera is going around Barry and his friend (from the back of them). The antennae fully disappear.
At 18:30, the tennis ball is going up in the sky... and also disappears/judders/stutters.
The scenes with bees flying around are just bad.

Animation films in 3D are just very bad.

Anyway, if I film and post on youtube, you'll see the same as Majorusa posted with vertical lines. You can get the original video (he posted the link).

Again we are not talking about extreme scenes at all, and it is hard for us to believe that developpers don't see that problem. I also feel the move from Philips is just to postpone this item.

As you have never objected with the videos posted (by gstan80 and Majorusa mostly) for the last 3 months, we had the clear understanding that this motion judder was in a confirmed status on your side. And it was stated that rpoblem was escalated to Development and that time was required to find a fix (Juan post).

Problem is reported in many different video forum.
We have also asked many times about a status about that item (more that 30 times). And we never got a clear answer, except now about providing scenes to report the problem.

HDM
10-31-2012, 03:12 PM
I have a 42pfl6007. If you use the child series Umizoomi or Dora as an example then you can see
how bad the PNM etc. is. Look at the horizontal movements in this series which occurs all the time.

Regards,
HDM

StephanS
10-31-2012, 05:00 PM
i do not have problem on my tv??? just set PNM to minimum or maybe even off. this works great for me, picture is great.

sejmon
10-31-2012, 06:00 PM
Benedikte, I am very dissapointed. After so much time, so many posts you came back with the same BS.

I will answer though but rest assured that I will start giving bad reviews with links to the youtube videos posted here that shows the issue very clear.
1. All files, including TV, internet, youtube, Philips TV menus, etc.
2. all sources produce the same issue.
2a. LG BDP 620
3. all digital inputs
4. 150.48.13 - but according to your change log the firmware 150.48.9 does not improve picture so what is the point in asking it?

Please stop this nonsense. The fact that you are reading about this bug from few people is because there are few people writing on this thread which is misplaced in the reviews section. Please read also the FW thread.

I gave you several videos showing the issue. How many videos more do you need. 10, 20, 100? Give a number, I will upload them on youtube with the Title, "Philips TV 6007 series, faulty picture" then who will search Philips TV will find 100 videos with this issue.

Have you tested the youtube link? I will post it again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDzcnxglmIE&list=FLVL_NRuiX7lPoF5jB9fcjWg&index=3&feature=plpp_video

It is not extreme. It shows some vertical lines moving on the screen. The HDNM cannot make those lines fluid?

I have the feeling that all that you do there is to postpone indefinitely the solving of this issue. Please prove me wrong.

Same problem by me on model 42pfl6097 with latest fw!!
very disappointed with 1000€ worth philips.:/

majorusa
10-31-2012, 07:51 PM
i do not have problem on my tv??? just set PNM to minimum or maybe even off. this works great for me, picture is great.

What model is your TV?

Can you test this video on your ty?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDzcnxglmIE&list=FLVL_NRuiX7lPoF5jB9fcjWg&index=3&feature=plpp_video

Thank you.

Manuj
11-01-2012, 09:38 AM
I recorded with my 1080p HD cam yesterday evening. I was mad keep seeing so many problems, and still feel that Philips is not supporting.

Anyway here is a sample.
Anennae of the boss (seen from the back) just disappear as the "pollen boys" are flying away.
At the end the bees are not sharp at all (look when they are going upwards, for instance the left/bottom bee)


http://youtu.be/w-2M0KgDh4s

PLEASE compare with original 1080p clip.
Anyone can get the original clip here, and test on their own TV : 1080p clip of 6 minutes (http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?sdm=web&pt=rd&sid=47678148)
Video on usb stick, TV player used (but same problem with any player and source)

Vertical lines just reveal the problem (or non moving objects on motion background). But the lack of sharpness is always present.
I will post other videos.

Edit for philips before they ask : performed with 150.48.13 firmware (no modif in service menu)

Manuj
11-01-2012, 10:54 AM
Will you be able to find original screenshot versus TV bad output ?
The problem can even be seen on these small thumbnails !!!!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JPJ1ExgQ8wk/UJJOY_zwOII/AAAAAAAAAAc/fslkM8ynVWw/s800/Antennae%2520Jocks%2520leaving.png

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-grBvSEQzOfc/UJJPZkTQZxI/AAAAAAAAAAs/lt36LsovmlI/s800/Antennae%2520Jocks%2520leaving%2520BAD.png

Also watch the bees that slightly disappear (as they are moving fast, the sharpness is totally missed out. The smaller the object (lines), the worst the outcome is for your eyes.

PICASA photo album for more (https://picasaweb.google.com/103398177299335568868/PhilipsTV6007SeriesFaultyPicture)

Manuj
11-01-2012, 11:28 AM
So look at the photo with both original and TV output.
I went to that scene because I could see the bees (next to the tree) disappearing live (flickering).
At quite a few places, you can see that details are missing/replaced by "slow moving" pixel colors next to "fast moving" pixels.
So the problem is not my Camera even if, for sure, it is an addition to TV for comparing the quality.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cgmUYHDs0vk/UJJ9clAEAII/AAAAAAAAAB4/m_ErWStrj8A/s800/Bikes%2520REFERENCE.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2oKEtLpqH7w/UJJ9hvtWONI/AAAAAAAAAB4/vt9QDRyfwYk/s800/Bikes%2520BAD.png

PICASA photo album for more (https://picasaweb.google.com/103398177299335568868/PhilipsTV6007SeriesFaultyPicture)

Now Benedickte, should I keep posting ?
I have non-professional tools and I hope your development team has.

I'd like a fix for this, or a 100% refund.
Thanks for your swift answer.

Edit :

Here is the video :
=> 0:15 for missing left arm of Barry (the Bee).
=> 0:30 for flickering/missing bees (above picture as screenshot)


http://youtu.be/3-8NHGp-EAE

Anyone can get the original clip here, and test on their own TV : 1080p clip of 6 minutes (http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?sdm=web&pt=rd&sid=47678148)

Manuj
11-01-2012, 02:20 PM
Fast motion of the whole scene

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VuyEpw88uvs/UJJ9mV5aLpI/AAAAAAAAAB4/-fIiVn65pMc/s800/Fast%2520moving%2520REFERENCE.png

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Rtf4SmLftl8/UJJ-yl1LWWI/AAAAAAAAACg/ff-cT89klJ4/s800/Fast%2520moving%2520BAD.png

In that example I want to show about the "feeling" I have that everything gets blurry when in motion.
It is not like losing a clean edge/object, but everything looks just bad on the TV.

I'm done unless Benedickte, or whoever wants at Philips, is asking for more.

I invested personal time in this (apart from my cash to buy this panel), I think I owe some feedback from Philips.

aise
11-01-2012, 04:44 PM
i watched the bee clip on my 8007 and antennas didn't dissapear. latest firmware.

majorusa
11-01-2012, 05:00 PM
i watched the bee clip on my 8007 and antennas didn't dissapear. latest firmware.

It is a 6007 issue, not 8007.

aise
11-01-2012, 05:08 PM
i know it's 6007 issue. wanted to know how 8007 would behave in the same situation.

majorusa
11-01-2012, 05:14 PM
Thank you for your input. Now is very clear for me that the issue is located to the 6xx7 series. I hope that for Philips is clear too and they will take some action. It is more than a month since Rafe post concerning the fact that the tech guys are investigating this, we are two firmwares down the road and still no solution.

This issue is affecting a lot of TV sets. I escalated this topic on several other forums and to Philips Romania. Let's see what is this leading to.

hermetic
11-01-2012, 05:32 PM
I'll second the issues illustrated in Manuj's videos - thanks for putting your time in posting them.

It's really annoying - whenever I see a vertical line I just hold my breath hoping that the scene won't "fall apart". Saw Top Gun the other day. Interesting to see what shape planes can take on a 6007...

I have a 55pfl6007, and the problem has been present on every firmware-release.

JosepX
11-01-2012, 07:43 PM
Have you tried on a 6007 with perfect pixel on (changing service menu) if it improves but not the whole problem disappears?

Regards.

JosepX
11-01-2012, 07:45 PM
If someone wants to move from Pixel Precise to Perfect Pixel on a 6xx7 model series, send me a private. Thank you.

Regards.

Manuj
11-02-2012, 07:52 AM
I'll second the issues illustrated in Manuj's videos - thanks for putting your time in posting them.


Thanks but I did nothing different than what was already posted by majorusa. Moving logos and vertical lines were already showing the problem.
However Philips asked for more input, and I had the feeling people would realize better with a "real" animation film.


Have you tried on a 6007 with perfect pixel on (changing service menu) if it improves but not the whole problem disappears?

No, not yet. I still want Philips to make the right move. They should act like a responsible company handling defects professionnaly. Until there, I will also do all my best to escalate the problem (forum, youtube, websites, direct contact in my country, ...).

And Thanks, I could copy your explanation (thanks by the way) and I also shared on different forum.

gstan80
11-02-2012, 08:49 AM
Fast motion of the whole scene

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VuyEpw88uvs/UJJ9mV5aLpI/AAAAAAAAAB4/-fIiVn65pMc/s800/Fast%2520moving%2520REFERENCE.png

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Rtf4SmLftl8/UJJ-yl1LWWI/AAAAAAAAACg/ff-cT89klJ4/s800/Fast%2520moving%2520BAD.png

In that example I want to show about the "feeling" I have that everything gets blurry when in motion.
It is not like losing a clean edge/object, but everything looks just bad on the TV.

I'm done unless Benedickte, or whoever wants at Philips, is asking for more.

I invested personal time in this (apart from my cash to buy this panel), I think I owe some feedback from Philips.

Manuj,

Thank you so much for the great contribution you had here.
Thanks to Philips you spent lots of hours trying to capture the motion issues on this TV instead of simply enjoy watching a good movie.

It is absolutely annoying to watch a movie where the edges are shaky. It happens both for horizontal and vertical lines.

As all of you said there is nothing to do but to let everybody know about how Philips consider to treat their customers. The best bet will be to unite ourselves into some organized group and start making complains. It is absolutely unacceptable to be treated like that.

Do not forget one thing:

THEY KNEW ABOUT THIS BEFORE LAUNCHING THE TV. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING NEW FOR THEM. THEY HAVE LOTS OF TESTS AND QUALITY CONTROL DEPARTMENT.

I saw the defect from the very first day I got the TV and I am not a specialist. I assume that their testers and quality control specialists are better than me.

Whoever is from Sweden and has the same problems, please private me.

G.

Manuj
11-02-2012, 09:21 AM
Yes, i have the exact same view as you.
I think Philips should propose to exchange to people willing to, or refund.

As you have a pfl6877, this means PNM is also bad (not only 6007 HDNM)
So this is really the whole pfl6xx7 serie right ?

Is anyone having the issue on newest pfl6907 ?
Most probably electronics is same.

If I could keep the passive 3D then I'll be happy.
In 3d there are always objects flying around, so this problem is general.

hugTV
11-02-2012, 10:30 AM
Cant agree much more than what has been said over all these pages. It's ridicoulus how bad the Philips support on this forum is. Barely any responses and the ones we get are on the level "Have you plugged in the cable?" "Did you try to press the power on button?". Seriously, the few customers who actually find there ways here are the ones that are experienced and know what they are talking about. If there wasn't a problem we wouldn't take the time to even find this remote place.

Just like especially gstan80 I have the 47PFL6877T/12 TV and the experience with the TV hasn't been very satisfying. I went from a old big non-flat TV so I don't have much previous experience on how HD content and such should look like. But it was clear from day 1 that the TV wasn't as strong as it was marketed as, especially by the sellers at Elgiganten in Sweden. I was actually first going to buy the Samsung ES8005 while it was on a huge sale, but I don't need motion control or inbuilt camera for skype or voice control, so I was convinced by the salesman that the Phillips TV would be an equal or better choice. Passive 3D was also a pretty good argument.

Getting home with the TV and starting it, you notice right away that the TV is basically running on SmartPhone hardware, menus were lagging and even changing volume, the volume indicator on TV lagged. My thought directly was "WTF have they even tested this?". I let that go for now though, and within some week there were firmware updates for the slow menu etc. and I did notice it got a bit better. The Smart TV apps are pretty much useless though, it lags and for e.g. the Youtube app I have buffering all the time even though I have 100 mbit line. Also for web browsering where the remote control is suppose to shine with it's keyboard... It takes freaking 2-5 mins to even load 1 page, let alone scroll down on it... The processing power (and memory availability?) of the TV is obviously to blame, it's extremely under dimensioned.

After some days I also started to notice in nature programs that when e.g. something was very zoomed in but moved quite quickly across the screen, like a wilder-beast running, the head (usually) got all pixelated in the edges.
Watching sports like Soccer/Football, especially in Standard Definition, you also notice this right away. The ball is barely watchable, it's like some distorted pixel party trailing the ball. How this was missed by the Phillips QA team, is just beyond anything reasonable. Maybe the QA is just done with Phillips slow moving demo video, which is obviously designed to be looking sharp on this TV?

I have watched only one full length 3D movie so far, it was Despicable Me, and I don't recall that much annoyance of the motion there in 3D. So I wouldn't as some here have mentioned say that 3D really enhances it but sure, it's there too in fast moving scenes especially panning ones.

If Phillips want an example to detect the issue on, watch the Doctor Who 2005 (e.g. Season 5 or 6 in 720p) intro. The text during the time tunnel effect where the Tardis (blue box) goes into a time warp/hole, is getting distorted quite a lot sometimes.

gstan80
11-02-2012, 11:43 AM
Cant agree much more than what has been said over all these pages. It's ridicoulus how bad the Philips support on this forum is. Barely any responses and the ones we get are on the level "Have you plugged in the cable?" "Did you try to press the power on button?". Seriously, the few customers who actually find there ways here are the ones that are experienced and know what they are talking about. If there wasn't a problem we wouldn't take the time to even find this remote place.

Just like especially gstan80 I have the 47PFL6877T/12 TV and the experience with the TV hasn't been very satisfying. I went from a old big non-flat TV so I don't have much previous experience on how HD content and such should look like. But it was clear from day 1 that the TV wasn't as strong as it was marketed as, especially by the sellers at Elgiganten in Sweden. I was actually first going to buy the Samsung ES8005 while it was on a huge sale, but I don't need motion control or inbuilt camera for skype or voice control, so I was convinced by the salesman that the Phillips TV would be an equal or better choice. Passive 3D was also a pretty good argument.

Getting home with the TV and starting it, you notice right away that the TV is basically running on SmartPhone hardware, menus were lagging and even changing volume, the volume indicator on TV lagged. My thought directly was "WTF have they even tested this?". I let that go for now though, and within some week there were firmware updates for the slow menu etc. and I did notice it got a bit better. The Smart TV apps are pretty much useless though, it lags and for e.g. the Youtube app I have buffering all the time even though I have 100 mbit line. Also for web browsering where the remote control is suppose to shine with it's keyboard... It takes freaking 2-5 mins to even load 1 page, let alone scroll down on it... The processing power (and memory availability?) of the TV is obviously to blame, it's extremely under dimensioned.

After some days I also started to notice in nature programs that when e.g. something was very zoomed in but moved quite quickly across the screen, like a wilder-beast running, the head (usually) got all pixelated in the edges.
Watching sports like Soccer/Football, especially in Standard Definition, you also notice this right away. The ball is barely watchable, it's like some distorted pixel party trailing the ball. How this was missed by the Phillips QA team, is just beyond anything reasonable. Maybe the QA is just done with Phillips slow moving demo video, which is obviously designed to be looking sharp on this TV?

I have watched only one full length 3D movie so far, it was Despicable Me, and I don't recall that much annoyance of the motion there in 3D. So I wouldn't as some here have mentioned say that 3D really enhances it but sure, it's there too in fast moving scenes especially panning ones.

If Phillips want an example to detect the issue on, watch the Doctor Who 2005 (e.g. Season 5 or 6 in 720p) intro. The text during the time tunnel effect where the Tardis (blue box) goes into a time warp/hole, is getting distorted quite a lot sometimes.

Thank you for taking time to write down your complains hugTV.

It means so much that everybody having problems to mention them all here. Since you are from Sweden please contact me so we can make a group complain to Konsumentverket.

I was told exactly the same things you mention below by the ElGiganten sales rep. They advertised this as the best motion processing TV in the store. Probably they were also fulled by Philips with their convenient done demo clip..

However the menu lag is ridiculous and using the smart side of the TV takes lots of nerves, so I never used it. YouTube app as you mentioned buffers like hell because is not optimised. I also have 100mbps plan which flies the data on any other device.

Batuhan
11-02-2012, 12:09 PM
I hope they do something for real on this motion problem... It is terrible annyoing.

Manuj
11-02-2012, 01:01 PM
I have watched only one full length 3D movie so far, it was Despicable Me, and I don't recall that much annoyance of the motion there in 3D. So I wouldn't as some here have mentioned say that 3D really enhances it but sure, it's there too in fast moving scenes especially panning ones.


I can take time to fire some video of Despicable me... but in 3D it gets complicated except to show it still in 2D (side by side).
I can well remember the scene when Gru trys to get into Vector's fortress. There are missiles that fly (or get distorted) in the sky.
Anyway there's no reason it may be better in 3D. I have the feeling there are more objects flying around, thus more judder problems.

Apart from that minor stuff, I second all your comments.

Manuj
11-02-2012, 01:06 PM
Thank you for taking time to write down your complains hugTV.

It means so much that everybody having problems to mention them all here.

Sure! People, please login and add a comment as a few new people have just done !

I also now contact all websites I can, in order to ask them to support our request to Philips, and relay the concern on pfl6xx7 "to the world".

I also contacted Philips in my country via support page.

Maybe we should setup a website about that. Using Joomla it is just a matter of a few hours.

Can you also all fire one polite email to
http://www.support.philips.com/support/ (Philips customer care depending on your country)
and another here
http://www.feedback.philips.com/dedicated/contact-philips/?param1=CORP_COMMS

I propose that you
=> politely ask for some support/mediator as we have no progress on philips support forum for the last 11 weeks.
=> Provide the link to this thread (first page) so that the person can estimate by herself what's happening

Maybe we'll finally reach a concerned manager who will care for customers.
People in Sweden should also try to find a contact in Philips (using linkedin or else).

Any idea to escalate is welcomed.

Toengel : what about your Philips blog ?

Sejer84
11-02-2012, 01:50 PM
Hello guys

I have the 47PFL6877T, purchased in danish Elgiganten. I have run all the posted videos from this thread, and can clearly see the problem. Last night i saw the movie Jarhead on my PS3 connected via HDMI 1.4, and the experience was terrible. Everytime they walked with a gun over the shoulder, the barrel disappeared.

I have been chatting with the danish philips support, and they say that they know of the problem, and that it's only on the 6000 serie.

Anyway, I thank all of you guys for the great work you do in getting the problem spread across the internet.

Best regards,

Michael (running software QF1EU-0.150.48.13)

gstan80
11-02-2012, 01:54 PM
Hello guys

I have the 47PFL6877T, purchased in danish Elgiganten. I have run all the posted videos from this thread, and can clearly see the problem. Last night i saw the movie Jarhead on my PS3 connected via HDMI 1.4, and the experience was terrible. Everytime they walked with a gun over the shoulder, the barrel disappeared.

I have been chatting with the danish philips support, and they say that they know of the problem, and that it's only on the 6000 serie.

Anyway, I thank all of you guys for the great work you do in getting the problem spread across the internet.

Best regards,

Michael (running software QF1EU-0.150.48.13)

Hello and thank you for your contribution.

ANYBODY ELSE HAVING PROBLEMS DON'T JUST READ THIS TOPIC, BUT ALSO POST SOMETHING HERE.

bowipl
11-02-2012, 02:29 PM
Same issues (HDNM problems, flickering) here. TV model is 47PFL6007K/12, FW ver. 0.150.48.13.

hermetic
11-02-2012, 02:30 PM
ANYBODY ELSE HAVING PROBLEMS DON'T JUST READ THIS TOPIC, BUT ALSO POST SOMETHING HERE.

Contacted customer support Norway with link to this thread and basically two questions:
- is this how PNM should act
- what is being planned for TV's/owners in/of the 6xx7-series

Will update if/when I get a reply.

gstan80
11-02-2012, 02:58 PM
All of you who are posting their problems in form of videos on YouTube, please also add Annotation like:

"WHOEVER HAS SAME PROBLEMS PLEASE POST SOMETHING ON THE OFFICIAL FORUM SO WE CAN FORCE PHILIPS TAKE ATTITUDE AND WORK ON THE PROBLEM. http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7088-47pfl6877t"

or something similar so we gather as many complains as we can here.

Also add that to your video description.

Manuj
11-02-2012, 03:09 PM
Hi Gstan80,

I'm not sure it is a good thing to write in capitals, in red, talking about "forcing" Philips.
For sure I'd like to escalate and do my best to get results.
But Moderators have been tolerating criticism and we should reckon this a good point.

I'd like Philips to be professional, and I'm still optimistic that they will move. Surely within a big company, it is harder to get decisions, and not every company act as Japanese companies at first (I mean recalling defective products such as Toyota, but overall Japanese companies).

So let's stay calm, be polite, collaborate and be as professional as we can. (but I'm just as mad as you are, don't get me wrong).

Philips
11-02-2012, 04:31 PM
Dear all,

Again I would like to point out that the HDNM (or Juddering) issue is under our full attention. At this point in time, unfortunately I can only repeat myself: we are looking into this and we will for sure get back to you a.s.a.p.

Let me explain the process a bit, not as an excuse but just so you understand where we are:
1. As with all issues, we first need to evaluate them (nr. of cases, severity, etc.).
2. Then, after evaluation, we pass on the information to the respective teams who technically look into the reported issues. This is what we did.
3. Our TV (software) teams from then on look into the issues and involve parties as needed. Also this process might take some time.
4. Finally, after a solution has been found, this must be tested thoroughly. You guess it, again takes time....

These kind of complex things are very time consuming, that is unfortunately a fact. So I apologies for this, but do hope for your understanding.


Kind regards,
JuAn

Manuj
11-02-2012, 04:38 PM
Thanks for your reply, as always we prefer to be able to talk.

After meetings, you now talk about processes. This is fine for you.

On our end we would like to get information, action lists and results. Usual care for customers.

What is the current situation and evaluation of this defect ?
Why was Benedickte recently asking for more videos ? as if the problem was not acknowledged within Philips ?

Please remind that we have been asking for information for the last 11 weeks. So time you had !

NaC
11-02-2012, 04:59 PM
Dear all,

Again I would like to point out that the HDNM (or Juddering) issue is under our full attention. At this point in time, unfortunately I can only repeat myself: we are looking into this and we will for sure get back to you a.s.a.p.

Let me explain the process a bit, not as an excuse but just so you understand where we are:
1. As with all issues, we first need to evaluate them (nr. of cases, severity, etc.).
2. Then, after evaluation, we pass on the information to the respective teams who technically look into the reported issues. This is what we did.
3. Our TV (software) teams from then on look into the issues and involve parties as needed. Also this process might take some time.
4. Finally, after a solution has been found, this must be tested thoroughly. You guess it, again takes time....

These kind of complex things are very time consuming, that is unfortunately a fact. So I apologies for this, but do hope for your understanding.


Kind regards,
JuAn

Juan,
Thank you very much for sharing the information.
Can you tell us please, according to the technical team input, if the HDNM issue can be solved? Is it just software problem?
(btw- my TV model is 42pfl6007k/12)
Thank you

majorusa
11-02-2012, 06:25 PM
Dear all,

Again I would like to point out that the HDNM (or Juddering) issue is under our full attention. At this point in time, unfortunately I can only repeat myself: we are looking into this and we will for sure get back to you a.s.a.p.

Let me explain the process a bit, not as an excuse but just so you understand where we are:
1. As with all issues, we first need to evaluate them (nr. of cases, severity, etc.).
2. Then, after evaluation, we pass on the information to the respective teams who technically look into the reported issues. This is what we did.
3. Our TV (software) teams from then on look into the issues and involve parties as needed. Also this process might take some time.
4. Finally, after a solution has been found, this must be tested thoroughly. You guess it, again takes time....

These kind of complex things are very time consuming, that is unfortunately a fact. So I apologies for this, but do hope for your understanding.


Kind regards,
JuAn

Thank you for the answer but can you make clear for us where you are? Did you pass point 1, 2, 3? Or are you still trying to determine number of sets affected, severity, etc? Let me give you a hint:
- this issue affects the whole 6xx7 series and severity is very high because invalidates the marketing of this TV. It has not the most clear picture ever but one of the worst, blurry and full with artifacts.

So, can you tell us where you are with this issue? Thank you.

gstan80
11-03-2012, 07:51 AM
Dear all,

Again I would like to point out that the HDNM (or Juddering) issue is under our full attention. At this point in time, unfortunately I can only repeat myself: we are looking into this and we will for sure get back to you a.s.a.p.

Let me explain the process a bit, not as an excuse but just so you understand where we are:
1. As with all issues, we first need to evaluate them (nr. of cases, severity, etc.).
2. Then, after evaluation, we pass on the information to the respective teams who technically look into the reported issues. This is what we did.
3. Our TV (software) teams from then on look into the issues and involve parties as needed. Also this process might take some time.
4. Finally, after a solution has been found, this must be tested thoroughly. You guess it, again takes time....

These kind of complex things are very time consuming, that is unfortunately a fact. So I apologies for this, but do hope for your understanding.


Kind regards,
JuAn


JuAn,

Please reply with a time frame.

Let us know exactly what is happening and most important the compensations in terms of extended warranty. You are investigating issues that should be done before launching the TV. Philips is now trying to repair the mess on our time and money.
You should really come up with something good.

A normal process will be money back and let us choose your brand and TV if and after you fix the problem. Another will be replacing our TV sets with some more advanced series that will not have such ridiculous problems.
That will show power and respect for the ones that feed you. Can Philips be found under the words of my last sentence?

Do not just give us a piece of bread here saying what the process is but not giving any substantial engagement.

at 3 - "Also this process might take some time. "
at 4 - " You guess it, again takes time...."

Is that what we are saying at the cashiers when we buy the TV and send money to Philips accounts? It takes time ? Is that what we are saying? Not to be mention that it takes time can mean anything for me.. 2 months 2 years..

Do you want to wash the dirt? Make a public release on the official page of the product that the next update will resolve this problem and explain the problem in it's little detail and also what is causing it. That will be admitting self fault and show us you really care. Do not just throw some vague promises here.

All my respect to the people contributing here and give out of their time to make complains.

G

Manuj
11-03-2012, 03:35 PM
I also would like a refund. This is fair because I did not get the following feature (which is major feature for me) :


400 Hz Perfect Motion Rate (PMR) creates extreme motion sharpness for clear and vibrant images in fast action movies.
The new Philips PMR standard shows the combined visible effect of the fastest panel refresh rate, HD Natural Motion and unique processing formula, for unprecedented motion sharpness.

My concern is that Philips is not prioritizing this work.
They will throw new features, just to be ready for Christmas cash.
In 11 weeks, the only facts we got on this forum are... 2 emails from Juan talking about meetings and processes.

Anyway, for all guys concerned, keep up the work of contacting websites, put user comments in 6xx7 panel reviews, calling your country Philips support & corporate, or else.
As you may notice, some keywords now make some pages go first about this problem (such as "Philips HDNM" in google or "Philips 6007" in youtube).
Voting for our youtube videos can also help.

I am thinking about setting up a quick Joomla website next week... Or a blog relating all other bugs.

In my opinion, going public is the only way to get some involvment from Philips and get results.
Or next time, Juan will tell us that 2.1 millions of pixels on a panel is huge.

Let me correct that the problem of HDNM judder was reported 13 weeks ago on this forum by black.stream (http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?6868-2012-42pfl6007h&p=37875&viewfull=1#post37875).
------------
[...]
However, more mobile resolution can be obtained now, but only if the HD Natural Motion is active enough, and the minimum value. In this case the display sharpness increases almost three times and is about 750 lines of vertical resolution, which is a solid result. However, this result does not come without interpolation, which movement is poorly executed, and that brings artifacts around moving objects on the same samples, which means interfere with attention.
[...]
------------

aise
11-04-2012, 05:54 PM
i watched the bee clip on my 8007 and antennas didn't dissapear. latest firmware.

PNM was off. when ON it looks like on the posted bee video. so 8007 is also affected.

fanfanloiseau
11-04-2012, 06:43 PM
Hi all,
I'm writing from France. I have just received my 55PFL6007H and I am very disturbed by the HDNM issue. I encounter the same problem as you, with blurry images and artefacts during fast action on screen. For instance "Alexander" on bluray is a complete mess during battles, same with "Braveheart", "Rob Roy", each time there are fast moves ... I tried changing the HDNM options without any success except when "off" but I have not bought this tv to use it in slow mode.

petasis
11-05-2012, 07:10 AM
Wow! I have read all this thread, just to realise what unreasonable claims the customers have from philips!
I would advice customers to concentrate on real problems, so as to get real solutions.
Right now I have the feeling that you think Philips is Harry Potter, who with a magical trick will restore the missing resolution from your film, that is not there.

Manuf, have you realised that movies are distributed in 24 Hz; 24 frames per second are too few to capture motion of any kind, except really slow movement. This is the famous "24p judder". When the film has been recorded in 24Hz, its even worse, as the blur has been captured on film.

So, you have a juddering (due to few frames) and blurry (due to filming) source.
And you want to see it. You have two alternatives:

a) See the material as it is. Just close HDNM and watch the movie. If not satisfied, please complain to the studio to release the movie in a better format, like 60Hz. (Please do so, we will all benefit).

b) Try to use a system that will at least "correct" the 24Hz judder (You can do *absolutely* nothing for clearing the blurring on the film). To remove the judder means to create new frames, in between the real ones. And this means, to *guess* new frames, by examining two frames you already have.

So, you compare two frames (which will be blurry when something moves), try to identify what moves, and try to move the moving object on its background. So as to give the impression of fluid motion.

Do you expect that all this guessing is without problems? Do you expect that any algorithm will not exhibit any problem no matter what material you through at it, when it has to guess and assume things?

If the moving object is moving over a highly detailed background (bricks, bars, etc), from where will the TV guess what was beneath the object to show it? It does the next best thing, blur a portion of the background around the object and move it. This creates a "halo" around moving objects, which shows on detailed backgrounds. And is some cases, fine details will deteriorate or lost.
Thats the penalty you have to pay, in order to eliminate judder.

So, you bring the blurry frames of a movie, and point that this detail has been lost? And to expect philips to do what? Add a special case for this scene, where the "guessing" bothers you? Change their algorithm to do other cases of guessing?
What do you really expect to happen?

What you complain about is a problem of motion compensation in general, and exists on all TVs. Have you checked the same scenes in another brand?
I think it would be interesting fr you to do so.

There is no solution for the problems you describe, other than to put HDNM at its minimum setting, or close it completely. It cannot be fixed, no matter what philips may try to do.

Manuj
11-05-2012, 08:26 AM
@petasis
This HDNM judder makes this TV the worst of its category. As you can see, there are a few people that just logged to confirm.
I know there's some frame calculation, by the way this is video with some "HD pixel precise" that Philips is boasting about for the last 4 or 5 years.

About moving object totally lost... one of the test I posted (I have plenty others!), have a non-moving antennae (of the boss of the bees). Calculating between two frames is not difficult to interpolate/calculate. And anyway this is their job to release a correct soft.
About blurry... Yes, I wrote this was always a feeling when there was motion. I tried to post two screenshots, and yes, I don't expect to be as clean as original file (because of 24hz interpolation and of my camera).
But remember I only did that because Philips was still asking for videos... They should be the guys for defining what's acceptable for the Quality they sell. But I now doubt they have some standard and Qualification before release. Look at the number of bugs... even stupid bugs as false hdmi detection when nothing is plugged!!!!

Yes, Philips has to change its algorithm (if harware is not also implied). They can't promote sharpness and we get blurry stuff. Let me remind that we had almost no communication from Philips. If we were out of topics, they should tell after 13 weeks. There are plenty of screens/panels at more than 24hz, I've never seen such a bad outcome.

A few customers of 6xx7 say they don't care, I respect them. Do you own a pfl6xx7 ?
As far as I can see you have a PFL9705 which is not affected from what I know. I propose that you post about your TV and experience, or buy a pfl6xx7 if you do think Philips has done a great job.

So please, use your sarcasm for other purpose than telling me I'm out of topic.
Don't expect a reply from me if you post again, at least until you own a pfl6xx7 !

mrb1972
11-05-2012, 09:42 AM
@petasis
This HDNM judder makes this TV the worst of its category. As you can see, there are a few people that just logged to confirm.
I know there's some frame calculation, by the way this is video with some "HD pixel precise" that Philips is boasting about for the last 4 or 5 years.

About moving object totally lost... one of the test I posted (I have plenty others!), have a non-moving antennae (of the boss of the bees). Calculating between two frames is not difficult to interpolate/calculate. And anyway this is their job to release a correct soft.
About blurry... Yes, I wrote this was always a feeling when there was motion. I tried to post two screenshots, and yes, I don't expect to be as clean as original file (because of 24hz interpolation and of my camera).
But remember I only did that because Philips was still asking for videos... They should be the guys for defining what's acceptable for the Quality they sell. But I now doubt they have some standard and Qualification before release. Look at the number of bugs... even stupid bugs as false hdmi detection when nothing is plugged!!!!

Yes, Philips has to change its algorithm (if harware is not also implied). They can't promote sharpness and we get blurry stuff. Let me remind that we had almost no communication from Philips. If we were out of topics, they should tell after 13 weeks. There are plenty of screens/panels at more than 24hz, I've never seen such a bad outcome.

A few customers of 6xx7 say they don't care, I respect them. Do you own a pfl6xx7 ?
As far as I can see you have a PFL9705 which is not affected from what I know. I propose that you post about your TV and experience, or buy a pfl6xx7 if you do think Philips has done a great job.

So please, use your sarcasm for other purpose than telling me I'm out of topic.
Don't expect a reply from me if you post again, at least until you own a pfl6xx7 !

I think @petasis has made a valid post, I don't think any TV has a 100% clean motion system i dont think its possible, and yes I do own 6007 and am very pleased with it - having tried last years LG and samsung LED the philips is miles much better than the LG for example especially for football, the philips handles it really well.

petasis
11-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Ok, I don't expect a reply, but I have looked at your videos and I haven't seen anything strange. If I haven't seen anything strange, don't expect the support to make any conclusion from them.

How about taking frames from the videos, and enclose in color squares the errors, to make them visible?

The model owned is irrelevant. Motion compensation has the same problems on all models, even mine has the same problems. These are problems of the technology, not the specific implementation.

And I insist in my suggestion to check this clips in another brand, and report back. How about in a samsung series 6000 model?

The fact that philips has much more bugs in their firmwares, does not prove that what you report is also a bug.

fanfanloiseau
11-05-2012, 09:50 AM
@petasis
your comment is a nonsense since technology allows a right display of fast moves. We are in no way speaking of the "blurry effect " captured by movie directors at the source but of artefacts, weird random pixel effects that spoils this product which claims to be able to clearly display fast action. The problem occurs with the hdnm setting at minimum too and while watching tv too. It happens when there are fast moves and objects on the screen.
I suggest you have a look at other brands then explain why such a problem doesn't occur ? I have an old LCD that has a better display with moves and no compensation at all .

majorusa
11-05-2012, 09:54 AM
What you complain about is a problem of motion compensation in general, and exists on all TVs. Have you checked the same scenes in another brand?
I think it would be interesting fr you to do so.

There is no solution for the problems you describe, other than to put HDNM at its minimum setting, or close it completely. It cannot be fixed, no matter what philips may try to do.

I truly love when people are making allegations without bothering to verify them. For your viewing pleasure I will post a video of my 42PFL9603D - a four years old TV with the same scene that I posted to show the issues 6007 series have. Look closely at the bars on the right hand side of the picture. Then look at the other video. Both have HDNM on maximum.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-w3uxdtRLo&feature=plcp

The picture on the 9603D is not perfect, It has some blur but this is not what we asked from Philips. We asked to fix the HDNM/PNM of the 6xx7 series in order to handle motion in the way my 4 years old TV was handling. Is this unreasonable?

The other video is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KilUA1A6ls4&feature=plcp

Manuj
11-05-2012, 11:07 AM
Thanks Majorusa, I have the feeling we are now trying to underestimate the problem... from people without this model...

Again if 6xx7 owners dont' see these artifacts/judder, I'm ok with it. But again Philips should decide and communicate whether there are problems or not. I/we don't try to do Philips' job, thus make good product. A

My/our own goal was to point at a problem so that the development team can correct it. This is why I posted other videos than Majorusa (that showed all problems), I also posted frame outputs with comments.

We have asked hundreds of times for acknowledgment, Philips would not tell until we began to get mad at this forum !
Now, as I understand Juan/Philips is acknowledging but talking as little as they can:

Again I would like to point out that the HDNM (or Juddering) issue is under our full attention. At this point in time, unfortunately I can only repeat myself: we are looking into this and we will for sure get back to you a.s.a.p.
Again they could have said that their HDNM had no defect... This is not my understanding from Juan.

Now, I don't watch football. I only watch films and animations. I don't undestand why these artifacts would not occur, but again, you may be more tolerant. Lucky you !

mrb1972
11-05-2012, 11:24 AM
Thanks Majorusa, I have the feeling we are now trying to underestimate the problem... from people without this model...

Again if 6xx7 owners dont' see these artifacts/judder, I'm ok with it. But again Philips should decide and communicate whether there are problems or not. I/we don't try to do Philips' job, thus make good product. A

My/our own goal was to point at a problem so that the development team can correct it. This is why I posted other videos than Majorusa (that showed all problems), I also posted frame outputs with comments.

We have asked hundreds of times for acknowledgment, Philips would not tell until we began to get mad at this forum !
Now, as I understand Juan/Philips is acknowledging but talking as little as they can:

Again they could have said that their HDNM had no defect... This is not my understanding from Juan.

Now, I don't watch football. I only watch films and animations. I don't undestand why these artifacts would not occur, but again, you may be more tolerant. Lucky you !

I have watched those two clips (bee movie and jail bars) over and over last night on my 6007 comparing with the two videos posted, I noticed you are using the maximum setting, I use the minimum setting which maybe why i'm not seeing the problem as bad as in the videos posted - (I would only use maximum for sport - Formula one for example) - I will try the max setting tonight to compare.

Manuj
11-05-2012, 12:16 PM
I have only set the minimum setting. Never more (and if there was no issue, min setting would be fine for me).
There may be some hardware differences then ? Or some other setting combination ? (clear lcd is ON, mpeg artifacts to min)
I've read several times that it was not a major issue for you.

Did you download the clip ?
I may also post some other frames. Like having tipple vertical lines at once (one in reference clip, but 3 on screen)

mrb1972
11-05-2012, 12:21 PM
I have only set the minimum setting. Never more (and if there was no issue, min setting would be fine for me).
There may be some hardware differences then ? Or some other setting combination ? (clear lcd is ON, mpeg artifacts to min)
I've read several times that it was not a major issue for you.

Did you download the clip ?
I may also post some other frames. Like having tipple vertical lines at once (one in reference clip, but 3 on screen)

Just to be clear I am not saying there is no issue at all, just not to the extent of the videos posted, I did download the bee movie clip and ep1 of white collar for the jail bar scene and played them off the USB stick.

i will try again tonight

hugTV
11-05-2012, 01:39 PM
I think Philips/JuAn was trying to say that they are at the stage 3. where they have left it over to the software technicians to look at it. If they actually have started on it or not is another thing, that's not mentioned.

I do agree on what I think gstan80 said, when we bought the TV, we didn't exactly have the option to say "Well, wait a bit, you will have my money, but it will take some time.". We paid and expected to get the finished advertised product, which we haven't got really. We got some kind of beta version where the menu was barely possible to navigate because of lag, even changing the volume lags, and sources get detected 10000 times. If Phillips had even put 1 min into testing their own TV, they would have noticed it all. I did notice as soon as I first went through the first initial settings.

Sure, Elgiganten has a very favourable policy of 30 days to test most products and return without cost. So it could have been returned for us who bought it there. But I don't watch TV all day or evaluated all kinds of different scenes. Except for the extremely laggy/buggy and stupid menu etc. and poor/useless Apps, I didn't notice that much issues with the TV. And 30 days goes really fast.

When firmware then came that addressed and acknowledged some of the menu lag, I also expected Phillips to keep up on the improvements. But it feels like it has stagnated a bit, the latest software isn't even available through the auto-update, I had to get it into a USB and updated manually. And now like some others I have some flickering during very bright scenes and it seems like the Format changes to Autofill some times.

While petasis has a point of source video and standards possibly could cause some issues on all models, it's obvious that many TVs has managed to compensate for this. As majorusa has shown very well in his videos, even old TV models can handle the movement much better.

I think the major issue is that Phillips has not put enough computing power into the TV, and that's of course hardware, not software. Software can only be optimized so much.

PS. Phillips: Please fix the menu so you can use shortcuts to get to various parts and why aren't you fixing all the broken, useless and slow "apps", while we wait for a real solution to the major issues. DS.

epaminondas
11-05-2012, 10:18 PM
Hi AliH.

Welcome to the forums.

I am pleased to hear you have been thinking about buying a Philips TV. A 6000 series is a good choice. I am sure you have looked the specifications of the TV. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask:)

This is the only one I have seen with this issue, so not a common or known issue.

Best regards,
Benedickte

I just found this forum thread after one of those videos on youtube and all I can see is a massive denial from Philips to acknowledge this issue.

First, why would you recommend this TV set by deceiving customers and saying that there was only one television with this issue?

It's been few months and it's full of videos online with TV having the same issues.

I just hope one day you will be able to solve it, I can't send the TV back anymore...

Zebbie
11-05-2012, 11:28 PM
I contacted Philips in Sweden about this problem with judder/artifacts in fast motion scenes and referred to this thread. They had never heard of this problem and was not interested in giving a refund, but they offered to take it in for repair because it could be something wrong with my TV (47pfl6877t). I told them it probably wouldn't help unless they replaced it with a different model.

So then I contacted Elgiganten that I bought the TV from and explained my problem. After a very long discussion they finally offered to let me return it if I bought another more expensive TV from them instead. So I did that and now have a Sony 55" HX855 instead, which I am extremely happy with. Perfect motion, perfect picture and lesser bugs.

So maybe you can try to contact the store you bought it from and if you're lucky they let you return it?

mrb1972
11-05-2012, 11:33 PM
I contacted Philips in Sweden about this problem with judder/artifacts in fast motion scenes and referred to this thread. They had never heard of this problem and was not interested in giving a refund, but they offered to take it in for repair because it could be something wrong with my TV (47pfl6877t). I told them it probably wouldn't help unless they replaced it with a different model.

So then I contacted Elgiganten that I bought the TV from and explained my problem. After a very long discussion they finally offered to let me return it if I bought another more expensive TV from them instead. So I did that and now have a Sony 55" HX855 instead, which I am extremely happy with. Perfect motion, perfect picture and lesser bugs.

So maybe you can try to contact the store you bought it from and if you're lucky they let you return it?

I looked at the HX, however I have read quite a lot of complaints about clouding/banding etc also the 3d isnt very good - ** sorry gone off topic **

mrb1972
11-06-2012, 12:19 AM
I have only set the minimum setting. Never more (and if there was no issue, min setting would be fine for me).
There may be some hardware differences then ? Or some other setting combination ? (clear lcd is ON, mpeg artifacts to min)
I've read several times that it was not a major issue for you.

Did you download the clip ?
I may also post some other frames. Like having tipple vertical lines at once (one in reference clip, but 3 on screen)
Ok did a little more testing, based on the white collar jail clip, the only way I can reproduce the ripple effect in the bars is to set the motion to medium or max, setting it to min removes 99% of the problem on that scene in my eyes

I have clear LCD on, noise and mpeg are off

Don't get me wrong i do see the odd problem now and then, its not perfect and I still hope philips look at it and see if they can improve it

fanfanloiseau
11-06-2012, 01:48 AM
I had the occasion to test the 47PFL6067H this afternoon in a shop and the HDNM problem also occurs like with the 55PFL6007H (which was exposed in the shop too and had the hdnm bug exactly like mine), so I think the issue affects at least the whole 6000 series. I really hope Philips are going to delevop an update soon because the tv would be the best in its range price without that ...

Herzie
11-06-2012, 07:39 AM
What you complain about is a problem of motion compensation in general, and exists on all TVs. Have you checked the same scenes in another brand?
I think it would be interesting fr you to do so.

There is no solution for the problems you describe, other than to put HDNM at its minimum setting, or close it completely. It cannot be fixed, no matter what philips may try to do.

That is just BS! You need to go to elgiganten and watch the TV yourself and then make this claim again. I returned my Philips due to the motion artifacts and got an LG instead. And there are almost no motion artifacts on the LG (with equal fluent motion). Yes there is some, but it is next to nothing compared to the Philips. Watching TV on the Philips made me mad because I couldn't stop focusing on the artifacts which made me feel like I had been ripped off by Philips (and the salesperson at Elgiganten who praised this TV over all others - I originally wanted another brand).

So to say that the motion artifacts as bad as the one seen on the Philips is a universal problem with all TV is simply wrong.

Manuj
11-06-2012, 09:15 AM
Don't get me wrong i do see the odd problem now and then, its not perfect and I still hope philips look at it and see if they can improve it

Maybe you're more tolerant than some of us.
Or some other explanation.

I began watching "shutter island" yesterday, again tons of artifacts with a 1080p film.
Even when a guy is coming to shake hands, his fingers disappear/blink.
There's a car moving behind some barbed wires, guess what, the barbed wires just disappear (kind of practical). A few seconds later a gate with wire grating, again as soon as the gate is moving the wires just disappear.
And I can see the blur when scenes are moving fast.
Then my kids watched Ice Age....

I just began making a video (under adobe after effects), with moving objects behind a grid. I'll see the outcome (well I first have to fight to find the right encoder, I can't find H264 under XP). Maybe we can make our own video reference.

It's hard for me to believe there is not enough processing power. This is not Philips' first fullhd models. My guess is that they wanted to split into too many options, and that gets awfull when not mastered/handled correctly. And looking at the number of bugs it can look as if they should improve their processes (bugs are okay, but we see many regressions, and recurring tiny stupid bugs).

Or Maybe Philips will tell more precisely what's happening.
Hello Philips, do you copy ?

mrb1972
11-06-2012, 09:31 AM
Maybe you're more tolerant than some of us.
Or some other explanation.

I began watching "shutter island" yesterday, again tons of artifacts with a 1080p film.
Even when a guy is coming to shake hands, his fingers disappear/blink.
There's a car moving behind some barbed wires, guess what, the barbed wires just disappear (kind of practical). A few seconds later a gate with wire grating, again as soon as the gate is moving the wires just disappear.
And I can see the blur when scenes are moving fast.
Then my kids watched Ice Age....

I just began making a video (under adobe after effects), with moving objects behind a grid. I'll see the outcome (well I first have to fight to find the right encoder, I can't find H264 under XP). Maybe we can make our own video reference.

It's hard for me to believe there is not enough processing power. This is not Philips' first fullhd models. My guess is that they wanted to split into too many options, and that gets awfull when not mastered/handled correctly. And looking at the number of bugs it can look as if they should improve their processes (bugs are okay, but we see many regressions, and recurring tiny stupid bugs).

Or Maybe Philips will tell more precisely what's happening.
Hello Philips, do you copy ?

Ha Ha no I am not tolerant at all, this is about my 7th TV in 2 years

What you provide scene times for shutter island I will check them out on mine

Manuj
11-06-2012, 09:49 AM
Do you believe some TVs are more affected than others ?
I can't believe I'm asking too much and just have to forget about sharpness on a full hd tv (my first by the way, I used to have a 720p projector). I have yet to test another brand myself.

If you can accepts artifacts in the bee movie clip, then that's enough I think. It's much worse than shutter island.
The whole scene with the pollen boys preparing to leave has fast movements. Comparing TV, PC and tablet makes the TV be very very bad. Still images look great, but I do watch moving actions !

Maybe Philips can tell more.
Hello Philips ?

mrb1972
11-06-2012, 10:13 AM
Do you believe some TVs are more affected than others ?
I can't believe I'm asking too much and just have to forget about sharpness on a full hd tv (my first by the way, I used to have a 720p projector). I have yet to test another brand myself.

If you can accepts artifacts in the bee movie clip, then that's enough I think. It's much worse than shutter island.
The whole scene with the pollen boys preparing to leave has fast movements. Comparing TV, PC and tablet makes the TV be very very bad. Still images look great, but I do watch moving actions !

Maybe Philips can tell more.
Hello Philips ?

I cant think why they would be different on different TV's , I do "accept" some artifacts but only because as a previous poster said these systems are not 100% perfect and never have been, - most professional reviewers turn off the motion system which leaves the motion resolution at about 300 lines on led - (That's why they all love plasma as the top ones do 1080 lines with no tricks)

I read somewhere that the min setting gives around 700 lines roughly which is pretty good, I image max does 1080 but the more aggressive you go the more artifacts you get.

The Bee movie clip for example I have to stare at the antenna's for that split second, they don't vanish completely just slightly flicker for a split second.

Anyway I will dig out the shutter island movie tonight and see what its like on mine

Manuj
11-06-2012, 12:18 PM
About bee movie, do you get as close as what I posted (http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7088-47pfl6877t&p=44216&viewfull=1#post44216) ?
It's not a split of a second on youtube, is it ?

I begin to have good results with my own video. I'll try to make the worst out of the TV ! And not with extreme stuff (well what is extreme anyway).
There's a LOT of leakeage with verticals (that we usually get in films, but horizontal is same I think).
I make the lines stand still on my vids, so interpolation is rather... well... kind of easy.

But maybe people at Philips could tell what they are up to ?
Philips people, do you hear me ?

mrb1972
11-06-2012, 01:21 PM
About bee movie, dou you get as close as what I posted (http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7088-47pfl6877t&p=44216&viewfull=1#post44216) ?
It's not a split of a second on youtube, is it ?


I will check it again tonight

Manuj
11-06-2012, 02:18 PM
Please people who care, check this 3Mb file (http://www.4shared.com/video/6POSYsad/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V8.html) and the worst effect on this second video (http://www.4shared.com/video/BUFO5p_u/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V9.html). I made them myself as you will understand.
I used 4shared as I don't know about other convenient way to store online.

This gets FULL of artifacts (well, that's my opinion that it is abnormal).
The objects are supposed to be moving in background of the standstill grid.
When boxes have a solid colors, mostly edges gest artifacts, but on second video the gradient color boxes are just awfull. In between boxes this is bad as well.

I know the human eye is subject to visual effects. But I feel there's a real defect on the TV, so more than you can understand from such online visual test (http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_feet_lin/index.html).

Dear Philips team, what is your opinion ?
Thanks for your swift reply.

mrb1972
11-06-2012, 02:33 PM
Please people who care, check this 3Mb file (http://www.4shared.com/video/6POSYsad/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V8.html) and the worst effect on this second video (http://www.4shared.com/video/BUFO5p_u/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V9.html). I made them myself as you will understand.
I used 4shared as I don't know about other convenient way to store online.

This gets FULL of artifacts (well, that's my opinion that it is abnormal).
The objects are supposed to be moving in background of the standstill grid.
When boxes have a solid colors, mostly edges gest artifacts, but on second video the gradient color boxes are just awfull. In between boxes this is bad as well.

I know the human eye is subject to visual effects. But I feel there's a real defect on the TV, so more than you can understand from such online visual test (http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_feet_lin/index.html).

Dear Philips team, what is your opinion ?
Thanks for your swift reply.

No problem I will try them out tonight - are you able to post a video of them playing back on your TV so we can compare

Manuj
11-06-2012, 02:39 PM
I'll have some rest first (and enjoy a film on my tablet maybe :D )
Adobe tools are awfull for unprofessionnal people like me.

But yes, I will.
I can also change a few settings if someone has some ideas about how to reveal the issue further.

Watchdog85
11-06-2012, 04:17 PM
Please people who care, check this 3Mb file (http://www.4shared.com/video/6POSYsad/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V8.html) and the worst effect on this second video (http://www.4shared.com/video/BUFO5p_u/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V9.html). I made them myself as you will understand.
I used 4shared as I don't know about other convenient way to store online.

This gets FULL of artifacts (well, that's my opinion that it is abnormal).
The objects are supposed to be moving in background of the standstill grid.
When boxes have a solid colors, mostly edges gest artifacts, but on second video the gradient color boxes are just awfull. In between boxes this is bad as well.

I know the human eye is subject to visual effects. But I feel there's a real defect on the TV, so more than you can understand from such online visual test (http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_feet_lin/index.html).

Dear Philips team, what is your opinion ?
Thanks for your swift reply.

Hi Manuj,

Tried to DL your file, but this 4Shared website keeps on asking me to login. I don't want that kind of hassle. Please use another, more easy, way to make it available.

Reading all the posts in this thread, I think this whole thing is a bit "overhyped" by you and some others here (main complainers are only 4 or 5 persons). Maybe they all work at Smsng? ;)

The explanation of "petasis" was very good. Trying all the movies and scenes you mentioned on my own TV (6097), did reveal a similar behavior, but I think all TV's (in this price range) suffer in a certain extend from these "artefacts", especially in these specific difficult scenes.

When I set PNM to MIN, the picture is excellent, even though I see some artefacts. I just do not focus on them. It looks like you are only watching a movie to spot artefacts! Why not lean back, relax and start enjoying the movie? Is it your profession to spot artefacts?

BTW, I am curious: what is your picture profile setting? MOVIE/STANDARD/GAME/VIVID/etc.? And what are the other Perfect Pixel settings?

Rgrds,
WD85

Manuj
11-06-2012, 04:51 PM
I will move the files.

If I take time to make test files, it is to show that I'm not dreaming. The 6097 is different (PNM is enabled and PMR is 600MHz right ?). I just can't set PNM to min !

Manuj
11-06-2012, 05:10 PM
Trying again. Could anyone confimr this is functional ?

Here is a new set of files (https://hotfile.com/dl/178698932/26dc21b/5Vids.rar.html)(same 4 videos + 5th)
Some moving objects behind static lines and contrary.

@Watchdog85
I'll also put those onto a usb stick and try to find a shop with a model close to yours (Thus with PNM and PMR 600). I still can't imagine I am nitpicking... and I also want to believe you. Maybe only the 6007 models are the worst and I'd be then glad to propose to pay a few more for a better quality.

Philips, is this HDNM issue only or worse on pfl6007 ?
Thanks

bowipl
11-06-2012, 05:35 PM
Trying again. Could anyone confimr this is functional ?

File 1, few artifacts (https://hotfile.com/dl/178683554/b3ad12d/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V8.avi.html)
Much more artifacts (https://hotfile.com/dl/178683943/1ee0f3d/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V9.avi.html). Keep focussing on the lines, not just follow the moving objects.
File 3, moving lines (https://hotfile.com/dl/178684067/53473c4/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V10.avi.html)
File 4 moving lines (https://hotfile.com/dl/178684207/184cbf9/HDTV_1920x1080_Xvid_V11.avi.html)

@Watchdog85
I'll also put those onto a usb stick and try to find a shop with a model close to yours (Thus with PNM and PMR 600). I still can't imagine I am nitpicking... and I also want to believe you. Maybe only the 6007 models are the worst and I'd be then glad to propose to pay a few more for a better quality.

Philips, is this HDNM issue only or worse on pfl6007 ?
Thanks

Links works just fine. I'll try them later on my 6007.