46pfl9707S/12 Fuzzy images when moving fast

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01-22-2013, 07:08 AM
Bennes

46pfl9707S/12 Fuzzy images when moving fast

Hi All,

The picture quality of the 46pfl9707 is really good when the image is moving slowly.
However when object are moving really fast and 'near by' the objects become distorded that looks like fluthering clothes.
It's also looks like objects are ripped-up in pieces.
This is really annoying for a TV with a price of € 2500,-
I tried anything with motion settings or pixel HD to get rid of this mechanism. However no improment.
I'm thinking of returning the TV to Philips for this.
Any solutions for this?

Regards,
Ben
01-22-2013, 10:34 AM
chrisham

What are your HDNM (HD natural motion) settings?

There is a known trade-off with HDNM, where picture interpolation leads to artifacts in some cases. You can either switch off HDNM (which might lead to judder with some source material), or you can activate HDNM to get rid of the judder, and live with the artifacts.

There is some lengthy discussion on this in the forums, just search for HDNM; some of the posts are really insightful and informative. Just don't let yourself be distracted by all the ranting and whining :-).

It all boils down to personal preference: routinely, the Philips algorithms are praised as very good in comparison to the competition - but since everybody reacts differently to different artifacts, you will also find enough people who claim the picture is absolutely horrible.

Unfortunately, the whole thing also strongly depends on:
- resolution of source material (SD or HD)
- overall signal quality
- scene content (slow/fast picture change; small details vs. large areas; special content of image, like regularly repeating patterns etc.)
- ...
01-22-2013, 12:16 PM
L1Zeeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisham

What are your HDNM (HD natural motion) settings?

There is a known trade-off with HDNM, where picture interpolation leads to artifacts in some cases. You can either switch off HDNM (which might lead to judder with some source material), or you can activate HDNM to get rid of the judder, and live with the artifacts.

There is some lengthy discussion on this in the forums, just search for HDNM; some of the posts are really insightful and informative. Just don't let yourself be distracted by all the ranting and whining :-).

It all boils down to personal preference: routinely, the Philips algorithms are praised as very good in comparison to the competition - but since everybody reacts differently to different artifacts, you will also find enough people who claim the picture is absolutely horrible.

Unfortunately, the whole thing also strongly depends on:
- resolution of source material (SD or HD)
- overall signal quality
- scene content (slow/fast picture change; small details vs. large areas; special content of image, like regularly repeating patterns etc.)
- ...

Hi Chrisham,

Last month my 32PFL7606 (2011 model, TV550-platform) was "upgraded" to a 32PFL6007 (2012 model, Fusion-platform). I can confirm that the picture quality w.r.t. movements for the 32PFL6007 is bad (compared to the 32PFL7606). I do not believe it is (just) a PNM bug, even without PNM the picture is much worse.

According to your proflie you have a 2011 model, which indeed is very good in this respect. Have you actually tested a 2012/Fusion model?

You refer to the "Philips Algorithms", your remarks are all very valid, but are they applicable in this case?
Note that in fact it is a Philips Semiconductors/NXP technology called MAPP (motion accurate picture processing) and is implemented in the NXP TV550 platform.
But are these praised algorithms are also applicable to the Sigma Designs Pro-Fusion platform?
01-22-2013, 01:40 PM
chrisham

Quote:

Originally Posted by L1Zeeman

[...]
According to your proflie you have a 2011 model, which indeed is very good in this respect. Have you actually tested a 2012/Fusion model?
[...]

Ah, obviously you know more than me on this topic: I didn't even know that there was a change in Platform with the 2012 TVs. I just assumed that TPV took over the Philips platform and ran with it.

So if I understand you correctly: TPV took their own platform, and put the Philips HMI on it?

And no, I didn't compare the different generations of Philips TVs - I only compared (subjectively) the different brands of TVs when I was shopping for my 2011 TV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by L1Zeeman

You refer to the "Philips Algorithms", your remarks are all very valid, but are they applicable in this case?
Note that in fact it is a Philips Semiconductors/NXP technology called MAPP (motion accurate picture processing) and is implemented in the NXP TV550 platform.
But are these praised algorithms are also applicable to the Sigma Designs Pro-Fusion platform?

Sorry, I don't have any inside information about what changed from 2011 to 2012 regarding the picture processing algorithms - I just extrapolated from my own experiences, and some of the research I did on the 2011 generation.
01-22-2013, 03:13 PM
Bennes

Hi Chrisham,

You are right about the quality of many H264 ( from media streamer) and other compressed movies.
These algorithms also introduce movement errors.
However if i play high quality mkv or blue ray i still have trouble with the artifacts.
It sometimes looks that objects change to dementors like grey smoke as in Harry Potter..
I played with the Natural motion settings,l even off, but it does not seems to change this distortion.
Any tips?
01-23-2013, 03:40 PM
L1Zeeman

Hi Ben,

If you use an external source, you can try switching to the Game/Computer mode.
This by-passes most of the picture processing in order to reduce latency.
Some users on the German forum report that in game-mode the judder/stutter problem is gone and that the picture is better than just switching PNM and ClearLCD off.

Regards,
Leen
01-23-2013, 05:37 PM
Bennes

Hi Leen,

Thanks for this info.
I'll try this and let you know.

Regards,
Ben
01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
Bennes

Fuzzy image using full HD streaming

Quote:

Originally Posted by L1Zeeman

Hi Ben,

If you use an external source, you can try switching to the Game/Computer mode.
This by-passes most of the picture processing in order to reduce latency.
Some users on the German forum report that in game-mode the judder/stutter problem is gone and that the picture is better than just switching PNM and ClearLCD off.

Regards,
Leen

Hi Leen,

Thanks for this fabulous tip.
Indeed the the problems with artefact with fast moving scenery is gone when using my HDMI streamer in game mode.
In game mode Perfect natural motion and Clear LCD is greyed out.
However the behavior with 'not in game mode' and switching off both perfect natural motion and clear LCD is clearly different and still produce heavy artefact when watching mkv's with full HD resolution.
I will use game mode for my streamer(s), Eminent EM7080 and ACRyan playon HD2 from now on.
Thank again.

Regards,
Ben