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All of you who are posting their problems in form of videos on YouTube, please also add Annotation like:
"WHOEVER HAS SAME PROBLEMS PLEASE POST SOMETHING ON THE OFFICIAL FORUM SO WE CAN FORCE PHILIPS TAKE ATTITUDE AND WORK ON THE PROBLEM. http://www.supportforum.philips.com/en/showthread.php?7088-47pfl6877t"
or something similar so we gather as many complains as we can here.
Also add that to your video description.
Hi Gstan80,
I'm not sure it is a good thing to write in capitals, in red, talking about "forcing" Philips.
For sure I'd like to escalate and do my best to get results.
But Moderators have been tolerating criticism and we should reckon this a good point.
I'd like Philips to be professional, and I'm still optimistic that they will move. Surely within a big company, it is harder to get decisions, and not every company act as Japanese companies at first (I mean recalling defective products such as Toyota, but overall Japanese companies).
So let's stay calm, be polite, collaborate and be as professional as we can. (but I'm just as mad as you are, don't get me wrong).
Dear all,
Again I would like to point out that the HDNM (or Juddering) issue is under our full attention. At this point in time, unfortunately I can only repeat myself: we are looking into this and we will for sure get back to you a.s.a.p.
Let me explain the process a bit, not as an excuse but just so you understand where we are:
1. As with all issues, we first need to evaluate them (nr. of cases, severity, etc.).
2. Then, after evaluation, we pass on the information to the respective teams who technically look into the reported issues. This is what we did.
3. Our TV (software) teams from then on look into the issues and involve parties as needed. Also this process might take some time.
4. Finally, after a solution has been found, this must be tested thoroughly. You guess it, again takes time....
These kind of complex things are very time consuming, that is unfortunately a fact. So I apologies for this, but do hope for your understanding.
Kind regards,
JuAn
Thanks for your reply, as always we prefer to be able to talk.
After meetings, you now talk about processes. This is fine for you.
On our end we would like to get information, action lists and results. Usual care for customers.
What is the current situation and evaluation of this defect ?
Why was Benedickte recently asking for more videos ? as if the problem was not acknowledged within Philips ?
Please remind that we have been asking for information for the last 11 weeks. So time you had !
Juan,Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips
Thank you very much for sharing the information.
Can you tell us please, according to the technical team input, if the HDNM issue can be solved? Is it just software problem?
(btw- my TV model is 42pfl6007k/12)
Thank you
Thank you for the answer but can you make clear for us where you are? Did you pass point 1, 2, 3? Or are you still trying to determine number of sets affected, severity, etc? Let me give you a hint:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips
- this issue affects the whole 6xx7 series and severity is very high because invalidates the marketing of this TV. It has not the most clear picture ever but one of the worst, blurry and full with artifacts.
So, can you tell us where you are with this issue? Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips
JuAn,
Please reply with a time frame.
Let us know exactly what is happening and most important the compensations in terms of extended warranty. You are investigating issues that should be done before launching the TV. Philips is now trying to repair the mess on our time and money.
You should really come up with something good.
A normal process will be money back and let us choose your brand and TV if and after you fix the problem. Another will be replacing our TV sets with some more advanced series that will not have such ridiculous problems.
That will show power and respect for the ones that feed you. Can Philips be found under the words of my last sentence?
Do not just give us a piece of bread here saying what the process is but not giving any substantial engagement.
at 3 - "Also this process might take some time. "
at 4 - " You guess it, again takes time...."
Is that what we are saying at the cashiers when we buy the TV and send money to Philips accounts? It takes time ? Is that what we are saying? Not to be mention that it takes time can mean anything for me.. 2 months 2 years..
Do you want to wash the dirt? Make a public release on the official page of the product that the next update will resolve this problem and explain the problem in it's little detail and also what is causing it. That will be admitting self fault and show us you really care. Do not just throw some vague promises here.
All my respect to the people contributing here and give out of their time to make complains.
G
I also would like a refund. This is fair because I did not get the following feature (which is major feature for me) :
My concern is that Philips is not prioritizing this work.Quote:
400 Hz Perfect Motion Rate (PMR) creates extreme motion sharpness for clear and vibrant images in fast action movies.
The new Philips PMR standard shows the combined visible effect of the fastest panel refresh rate, HD Natural Motion and unique processing formula, for unprecedented motion sharpness.
They will throw new features, just to be ready for Christmas cash.
In 11 weeks, the only facts we got on this forum are... 2 emails from Juan talking about meetings and processes.
Anyway, for all guys concerned, keep up the work of contacting websites, put user comments in 6xx7 panel reviews, calling your country Philips support & corporate, or else.
As you may notice, some keywords now make some pages go first about this problem (such as "Philips HDNM" in google or "Philips 6007" in youtube).
Voting for our youtube videos can also help.
I am thinking about setting up a quick Joomla website next week... Or a blog relating all other bugs.
In my opinion, going public is the only way to get some involvment from Philips and get results.
Or next time, Juan will tell us that 2.1 millions of pixels on a panel is huge.
Let me correct that the problem of HDNM judder was reported 13 weeks ago on this forum by black.stream.
------------
[...]
However, more mobile resolution can be obtained now, but only if the HD Natural Motion is active enough, and the minimum value. In this case the display sharpness increases almost three times and is about 750 lines of vertical resolution, which is a solid result. However, this result does not come without interpolation, which movement is poorly executed, and that brings artifacts around moving objects on the same samples, which means interfere with attention.
[...]
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PNM was off. when ON it looks like on the posted bee video. so 8007 is also affected.Quote:
Originally Posted by aise
Hi all,
I'm writing from France. I have just received my 55PFL6007H and I am very disturbed by the HDNM issue. I encounter the same problem as you, with blurry images and artefacts during fast action on screen. For instance "Alexander" on bluray is a complete mess during battles, same with "Braveheart", "Rob Roy", each time there are fast moves ... I tried changing the HDNM options without any success except when "off" but I have not bought this tv to use it in slow mode.
Wow! I have read all this thread, just to realise what unreasonable claims the customers have from philips!
I would advice customers to concentrate on real problems, so as to get real solutions.
Right now I have the feeling that you think Philips is Harry Potter, who with a magical trick will restore the missing resolution from your film, that is not there.
Manuf, have you realised that movies are distributed in 24 Hz; 24 frames per second are too few to capture motion of any kind, except really slow movement. This is the famous "24p judder". When the film has been recorded in 24Hz, its even worse, as the blur has been captured on film.
So, you have a juddering (due to few frames) and blurry (due to filming) source.
And you want to see it. You have two alternatives:
a) See the material as it is. Just close HDNM and watch the movie. If not satisfied, please complain to the studio to release the movie in a better format, like 60Hz. (Please do so, we will all benefit).
b) Try to use a system that will at least "correct" the 24Hz judder (You can do *absolutely* nothing for clearing the blurring on the film). To remove the judder means to create new frames, in between the real ones. And this means, to *guess* new frames, by examining two frames you already have.
So, you compare two frames (which will be blurry when something moves), try to identify what moves, and try to move the moving object on its background. So as to give the impression of fluid motion.
Do you expect that all this guessing is without problems? Do you expect that any algorithm will not exhibit any problem no matter what material you through at it, when it has to guess and assume things?
If the moving object is moving over a highly detailed background (bricks, bars, etc), from where will the TV guess what was beneath the object to show it? It does the next best thing, blur a portion of the background around the object and move it. This creates a "halo" around moving objects, which shows on detailed backgrounds. And is some cases, fine details will deteriorate or lost.
Thats the penalty you have to pay, in order to eliminate judder.
So, you bring the blurry frames of a movie, and point that this detail has been lost? And to expect philips to do what? Add a special case for this scene, where the "guessing" bothers you? Change their algorithm to do other cases of guessing?
What do you really expect to happen?
What you complain about is a problem of motion compensation in general, and exists on all TVs. Have you checked the same scenes in another brand?
I think it would be interesting fr you to do so.
There is no solution for the problems you describe, other than to put HDNM at its minimum setting, or close it completely. It cannot be fixed, no matter what philips may try to do.
@petasis
This HDNM judder makes this TV the worst of its category. As you can see, there are a few people that just logged to confirm.
I know there's some frame calculation, by the way this is video with some "HD pixel precise" that Philips is boasting about for the last 4 or 5 years.
About moving object totally lost... one of the test I posted (I have plenty others!), have a non-moving antennae (of the boss of the bees). Calculating between two frames is not difficult to interpolate/calculate. And anyway this is their job to release a correct soft.
About blurry... Yes, I wrote this was always a feeling when there was motion. I tried to post two screenshots, and yes, I don't expect to be as clean as original file (because of 24hz interpolation and of my camera).
But remember I only did that because Philips was still asking for videos... They should be the guys for defining what's acceptable for the Quality they sell. But I now doubt they have some standard and Qualification before release. Look at the number of bugs... even stupid bugs as false hdmi detection when nothing is plugged!!!!
Yes, Philips has to change its algorithm (if harware is not also implied). They can't promote sharpness and we get blurry stuff. Let me remind that we had almost no communication from Philips. If we were out of topics, they should tell after 13 weeks. There are plenty of screens/panels at more than 24hz, I've never seen such a bad outcome.
A few customers of 6xx7 say they don't care, I respect them. Do you own a pfl6xx7 ?
As far as I can see you have a PFL9705 which is not affected from what I know. I propose that you post about your TV and experience, or buy a pfl6xx7 if you do think Philips has done a great job.
So please, use your sarcasm for other purpose than telling me I'm out of topic.
Don't expect a reply from me if you post again, at least until you own a pfl6xx7 !
I think @petasis has made a valid post, I don't think any TV has a 100% clean motion system i dont think its possible, and yes I do own 6007 and am very pleased with it - having tried last years LG and samsung LED the philips is miles much better than the LG for example especially for football, the philips handles it really well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuj
Ok, I don't expect a reply, but I have looked at your videos and I haven't seen anything strange. If I haven't seen anything strange, don't expect the support to make any conclusion from them.
How about taking frames from the videos, and enclose in color squares the errors, to make them visible?
The model owned is irrelevant. Motion compensation has the same problems on all models, even mine has the same problems. These are problems of the technology, not the specific implementation.
And I insist in my suggestion to check this clips in another brand, and report back. How about in a samsung series 6000 model?
The fact that philips has much more bugs in their firmwares, does not prove that what you report is also a bug.
@petasis
your comment is a nonsense since technology allows a right display of fast moves. We are in no way speaking of the "blurry effect " captured by movie directors at the source but of artefacts, weird random pixel effects that spoils this product which claims to be able to clearly display fast action. The problem occurs with the hdnm setting at minimum too and while watching tv too. It happens when there are fast moves and objects on the screen.
I suggest you have a look at other brands then explain why such a problem doesn't occur ? I have an old LCD that has a better display with moves and no compensation at all .