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  1. #16
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    Algiam, you should notice that the big PNM frame skips are gone though I hope! I was watching for about 3-4 hours yesterday evening and it didn't seem to be happening.

    I also have never seen or heard of a problem with a blurry picture when starting the TV from standby. Very odd.

    There are some sneaky changes. For example, before it was possible to "scan" your HDMI ports to detect new devices. This is no longer there (you used to get to it, by pressing Home, then choosing Inputs, and then pressing one of the coloured buttons). Instead the TV seems to regularly detect changes on its own....which may be better. The problem with this though is that the order of HDMI devices may change on its own unexpectedly.

  2. #17
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    Hi Jonstatt, since you are one of the most accurate persons to give feedback, have you noticed any change in dynamic contrast?




    Quote Originally Posted by jonstatt View Post
    Algiam, you should notice that the big PNM frame skips are gone though I hope! I was watching for about 3-4 hours yesterday evening and it didn't seem to be happening.

    I also have never seen or heard of a problem with a blurry picture when starting the TV from standby. Very odd.

    There are some sneaky changes. For example, before it was possible to "scan" your HDMI ports to detect new devices. This is no longer there (you used to get to it, by pressing Home, then choosing Inputs, and then pressing one of the coloured buttons). Instead the TV seems to regularly detect changes on its own....which may be better. The problem with this though is that the order of HDMI devices may change on its own unexpectedly.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by antti-la View Post
    Although not mentioned in changelog, any of these fixed yet?
    ...
    -Dynamic backlight acting too aggressive even on standard?
    ...
    Nope, still the same, which does not surprise me anymore. The issue with the dynamic backlight was reported 6 (!) months ago for the first time. Since they did not bother to fix it I assume they consider it a feature and not a bug. Either that or they employ visually handicapped engineers.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by johaninho View Post
    Hi Jonstatt, since you are one of the most accurate persons to give feedback, have you noticed any change in dynamic contrast?
    As Danny said, I have not noticed a difference with this. I know everyone perceives things in different ways, but for some reason Standard does not upset me like it does for others. I did test and see that Standard was still less aggressive than the other options. I don't believe Philips consider this a bug...but more of an "optimisation" in their view. As edge lit LCD panels tend to suffer from mura (clouds in very dark or black scenes), I have a feeling this has been done on purpose to minimise the visibility of this by dropping the backlight more aggressively on dark scenes. Fortunately as the native contrast of the LCD panel is pretty good, you don't end up with a dim mush and mess with low APL (average picture level) scenes which I have seen on a Panasonic TV with backlight dimming.

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    Philips - Ina's Avatar
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    Hi everyone!

    I'm just going to give a little update on the software

    1. Changelog info

    The initial internal changelog had an incorrect description of a solution which has caused some confusion. Sorry for this!

    The issue in question in regarding the general picture quality complaints (also reported via the forum) we have received.

    I would like to point out that even though the forum feedback is very valuable to us, it is however not the only feedback we receive. If the fixes do not appear to apply to your issues, then that does not mean they are not also worthy of being solved. Please keep this in mind.


    2. Dynamic Contrast.

    I have received information regarding the changes to the Dynamic Backlight algorithms. These algorithms were improved in previous firmware to allow dimming on an increased range of scenes.

    I would suggest to try turning off the Light Sensor as this could amplify the dynamics.


    3. Feedback

    The more details you guys are able to provide about your experiences the better. I have noticed a distinct increase in detailed feedback for which I am very grateful.

    The more information I have, the more I can do with it!

    Thank you all!

    Ina
    Forum Mod

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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonstatt View Post
    Fortunately as the native contrast of the LCD panel is pretty good, you don't end up with a dim mush and mess with low APL (average picture level) scenes which I have seen on a Panasonic TV with backlight dimming.
    Sorry but that's not true. You do end up with a dim mush and mess as you call it in low APL scenes. The native contrast of the panel and the pushing of contrast by the dynamic backlight in low APL scenes can't compensate the too aggressive dimming. Try watching a movie with lots of dark scenes and tell me it's not happening.
    The last firmware that had the dynamic backlight working more or less acceptably was 171.056. Since 173 it's been unusable.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philips - Ina View Post

    2. Dynamic Contrast.

    I have received information regarding the changes to the Dynamic Backlight algorithms. These algorithms were improved in previous firmware to allow dimming on an increased range of scenes.

    I would suggest to try turning off the Light Sensor as this could amplify the dynamics.

    Ina
    I don't use the light sensor so ...

    What I have seen when I measured the tv is this:

    With the dynamic backlight turned on in standard mode:

    In 171 (and earlier firmwares) 0 Ire (a full black screen) measures 0.02 meaning the backlight is not completely turned off.
    In 173 0 Ire measures 0.00 meaning the backlight is completely turned off.

    That is I believe the cause of the too aggressive dimming problem in standard mode in 173. A simple fix would be to never turn the backlight completely off (like in 171 and earlier) as no algorithm is good enough to translate director intent for instance.

    (I should measure 1 to 10 Ire to see what happens exactly in low APL but to tell the truth, I really can't be bothered anymore, it's something the Philips engineers should do).
    Last edited by DannyN; 05-22-2014 at 12:04 PM.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyN View Post
    Sorry but that's not true. You do end up with a dim mush and mess as you call it in low APL scenes. The native contrast of the panel and the pushing of contrast by the dynamic backlight in low APL scenes can't compensate the too aggressive dimming. Try watching a movie with lots of dark scenes and tell me it's not happening.
    The last firmware that had the dynamic backlight working more or less acceptably was 171.056. Since 173 it's been unusable.
    I do watch a lot of horror and sci-fi movies so I am used to some very dim scenes as you can imagine. Perhaps it is because I came from a Panasonic that was truly awful for this (edge lit as well), that the Philips is still much better. I never had the old firmware as I only got the TV recently, so I don't have a basis for comparison. You have obviously specifically looked for crush and loss of shadow detail. I don't tend to calibrate the Philips as precisely because I have a projector set-up for the more accurate and precise viewing. Out of interest do you watch in a dimly lit room?

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonstatt View Post
    I do watch a lot of horror and sci-fi movies so I am used to some very dim scenes as you can imagine. Perhaps it is because I came from a Panasonic that was truly awful for this (edge lit as well), that the Philips is still much better. I never had the old firmware as I only got the TV recently, so I don't have a basis for comparison. You have obviously specifically looked for crush and loss of shadow detail. I don't tend to calibrate the Philips as precisely because I have a projector set-up for the more accurate and precise viewing. Out of interest do you watch in a dimly lit room?
    Watch Alien or 2001 and see what happens.

    I also have a projector on which I do most of my movie watching. But in summer I tend to use the tv as well for watching movies.

    The tv is in the living room in normal lighting conditions (for a living room). Never completely dimmed as the room my projector is in.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyN View Post
    Watch Alien or 2001 and see what happens.

    I also have a projector on which I do most of my movie watching. But in summer I tend to use the tv as well for watching movies.

    The tv is in the living room in normal lighting conditions (for a living room). Never completely dimmed as the room my projector is in.
    I have both of those on Blu-ray..I will check them out. Thanks for the suggestions.

    My TV is in the bedroom and so I tend to watch it in dimmer conditions...sometimes complete blackout. I was just wondering if the different lighting conditions may contribute to why I don't see the "dim mess" as often or as obviously....but those titles may change my viewpoint

  12. #26
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    S02E05 of "vikings" is a good PNM framedropping test (from 00:10:00 and onwards), the intro scenes of Transporter 2 are good for motion blur measuring.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louikes View Post
    S02E05 of "vikings" is a good PNM framedropping test (from 00:10:00 and onwards), the intro scenes of Transporter 2 are good for motion blur measuring.
    Thanks for that. Are you going to try .52 or stick with your legacy software set-up?!

  14. #28
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    I'd like to give thanks to jonstatt and DannyN for the great and specific reports they have been giving out lately.

    For the first time ever I found a way to change the image settings on Netflix based on jonstatt's tip. A huge thanks for that. Finally after a year of owning this TV, I can actually use it for Netflix.

    I installed the firmware and tried a couple of scenes out.

    PNM actually seems to be a tad smoother this time around. The biggest problem earlier was the occasional stutter and frame drops, which made the whole movement inconsistent and immediately ruined the viewing experience. Consistency is the key thing here for a non-interrupted viewing expirience. Happy to report that framedrops are almost totally gone now, not entirely, but surely improved. There's still the artifacts and blocks and halos when objects move fastly, but I guess that's really a limitation of the hardware which is bottlenecking this TV-series. There's only so much you can do in real time with the hardware of these. Still it's kind of dissapointing as I just visited my friends house to watch a movie, who had bought a more low end LG and the artifacting was pretty much non-existent. Kudos to Philips that the general image quality was much better though.

    I still think Dynamic Backlight setting (Standard to be specific) is not as good as it used to be on earlier firmwares. It just dims the backlight way too dark on dimly lighted scenes, especially if the backlight is set somewhere between 40-50. It even might be that it's just my eyes that can't adjust quickly enough to the drop and all I see is severe loss of shadow detail or crushed blacks if you will. Even with the light sensor disabled. I also think it somehow messes up the color settings dynamically too while doing this, you can clearly see how white subtitles get tints of red or blue when the system is making changes.

    I also hope that the folks at Philips realize that we aren't on this forum to make mockery of you. I can only talk for my self, but I have really tried to give good feedback, although it has to be admitted that few times my posts have been driven by frustration when firmware updates haven't adressed the things I've spent a lot of time and effort to report here, especially if you guys haven't commented to the issue at all and seem to neglect it. We are real customers who have bought your product for a good price - maybe a bit on the enthusiast end of customers, but still.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toengel View Post
    Hi,

    please specify "HDMI delay" in more detail.
    You are joking right? The issue with audio delay on DD 5.1 streams through HDMI connected sources has been reported numerous times ever since the first release of the 173 series firmware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonstatt View Post
    Thanks for that. Are you going to try .52 or stick with your legacy software set-up?!
    I might try it this afternoon just for testing the improved PNM, like is said, the "HDMI delay" is simply unacceptable for me, mostly my wife actually. TLC-HD is her favorite channel and this one only has DD5.1 in dutch UPC-regions. I have to keep 171.056 or i might not get any ;-)

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