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  1. #31
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    I am glad I was able to help out antti-la with Netflix. I am also happy to know that I am not the only one seeing a change in PNM!

    I have some more observations which are quite interesting I think.

    Firstly, I have noticed that if you have PNM running for quite some time, and then switch it off completely, the motion looks choppy for a few minutes until things settle down. Is the settling down my brain or the TV? I was wondering if the panel gets driven differently when PNM is on (e.g. overdrive), and then it takes a short time to settle down after you switch PNM off.

    Connected with this, I found that when PNM is set to minimum, sometimes you can clearly see it is doing its thing, and in other scenes it just doesn't seem to even try. This is seen as micro judder, just like if I switch PNM off suddenly. If I rewind and replay the same scene, it is the same everytime so it is not the "dropped frame" issue which I believe is mostly fixed now.

    I actually find if I am going to use PNM, that medium is better, because then it never seems to "let go" on any scene and so the motion is more consistent and fluid.

    As I say, it may be brain is extra sensitive to when PNM is on and off, so if minimum is applying PNM to some scenes and not others, my brain is catching those transitions. It's not "bad", but medium is better for me which is totally unexpected......or PNM on minimum is still not working quite right.

    As per my previous report, I am not seeing the stutters and frame skips present in 0.50 and 0.51.

  2. #32
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    jonstatt,
    I don't want to frustrate You, but look closely - PNM frame skipping is still present...
    This problem (and generally PNM motion problems) remaining still unsolved.
    Looks like Philips don't give a .... about it and about their customers.
    If You can live without Ambilight, go for the Sony latest LED models - they have implemented beautiful, really great natural motion, which can be called 'perfect'.
    If You want to stick with Philips and wait until they will made any PNM changes, well... dream on.
    Sad but true...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gelo29 View Post
    jonstatt,
    I don't want to frustrate You, but look closely - PNM frame skipping is still present...
    This problem (and generally PNM motion problems) remaining still unsolved.
    Looks like Philips don't give a .... about it and about their customers.
    If You can live without Ambilight, go for the Sony latest LED models - they have implemented beautiful, really great natural motion, which can be called 'perfect'.
    If You want to stick with Philips and wait until they will made any PNM changes, well... dream on.
    Sad but true...
    I agree with you about the fact that PNM is still far from how it should be. There were two separate issues before. In 0.50 and 0.51 (and perhaps .49 as well), there were massive frame drops, and if you rewound back and played the same section again, the frame drops didn't happen. This seems to be cured. There is indeed still some judder on certain scenes which absolutely shouldn't be there and needs to be fixed...and if you rewind those scenes and replay, its the same everytime.

    So they fixed "something", but it still needs a lot of work.

    I love ambilight....that's why I still have hope Philips will get this TV right....

  4. #34
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    In my TV, after upgrading PNM frame drops are still present, unfortunately.
    When I play, for instance, an .mkv file form HDD connected to TV.
    If I rewind back the same film scene - frame drop don't happen again.
    So, this issue is still present and is very annoying.
    I didn't notice big improvement (if any) comparing to 0.50 / 0.51 firmware versions.
    This issue is less visible in older 171. firmwares, but still is.

    As for Ambilight - I like it also.
    Without it I would go for Sony's led TV long time ago...

  5. #35
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    I tried this firmware aswel and have to say PNM is still very bad! And of course the hdmi delay is still present. Please try to remember what scenes you tested on before and after update. Im back to 171.056 now. I guess we are all ambilight junkies i really love it, and its the only reason i bought a philips. If this patent is ever denied i cant think of any reason to buy a philips.

  6. #36
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    Louikes,
    my words exactly
    Without Ambilight this TV is one of the worst led TVs on the market, sadly...
    Lower-end LGs or Samsungs are much better and for the great prices.
    Not to mention Sony's latest led models, which have the best motion processing I've ever seen.
    Ambilight is the one and only strong point of Philips by now.
    Whole rest is unacceptable, especially at this price range.

    I am back to 171.056 firmware also, which seems to be the best so far (I mean it spoils less).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louikes View Post
    I tried this firmware aswel and have to say PNM is still very bad! And of course the hdmi delay is still present. Please try to remember what scenes you tested on before and after update. Im back to 171.056 now. I guess we are all ambilight junkies i really love it, and its the only reason i bought a philips. If this patent is ever denied i cant think of any reason to buy a philips.
    I keep seeing the PNM as bad as ever, have not noticed any improvement in image quality. Philips does not say he did anything about it.

    Maybe in the next update? ...... :-) Do not think so but we can only hope.

    in a few days I will write my pros and cons, I'm still testing this.

  8. #38
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    Hello everyone,

    I bought the TV in February and I have updated immediately, so I can't compare with 171 version - I don't feel like I want to go back to an unsupported firmware (or more like an unsupported upgrade of firmware), but:

    About PNM
    - the PNM is improved compared to latest versions (173)
    - there is still some judder and some blocks during fast movements (the same like in a crappy MPEG compression)
    - the halo effect that appear around moving objects (people especially) appears (for me) only when there is a high contrasts between them and the background or the background contains stripes/blocks (fences, buildings with windows)
    - the effects around the channel's logos and the subtitles are drastically improved, bu there may be a catch; I keep the:
    * Noise reduction
    * MPEG artefact reduction
    settings at maximum.
    This is a personal choice, as I watch TV via an IPTV stream (MPEG stream) and for SD channels it's quite useful.

    I also keep the PNM at maximum, because it seems to me that this way there are fewer block/judder artefacts.

    I have observed that without Noise reduction/MPEG artefact reduction settings, the artfecats around subtitles are still present.

    I have noticed, too, that if you switch the PNM off there is transition period of couple second when the frames are skipped/or the fps is drastically reduced.

    About dynamic backlight
    Still a disaster:
    - no matter what settings I choose
    - with or without the light sensor
    - played with brightness/contrast, back-light contrast

    I turned it off, and I kept the brightness of the back-light at 50 and some higher contrast.


    I can't report about HDMI delay or about any other issue with audio since I don't have right now a HTS.
    I think I will have to stick with Phillips (when I'll buy one), for the sake of compatibility

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  10. #39
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    Thanks, your comments about Noise reduction and MPEG artefact reduction are very interesting. i always disabled as many features as possible in order to keep processor time free for the ones i use. I remember Samsung had similar features with clear motion like blur and artifact subsettings. I'll try this asap.
    Last edited by Louikes; 05-26-2014 at 08:22 AM.

  11. #40
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    Darkdragon, thanks for confirming I am not going insane by seeing "some" level of difference with PNM in this version. As I mentioned earlier I think there is still something substantially wrong with the implementation. Depending on the level of PNM, and the particular scene being watched, it either "smooths" the motion or "let's go" and appears not to be processing it. However, when it "let's go" this is when you see the judder. The higher the PNM level, the less the processing "let's go" and therefore the less you see the judder.

    While I would love to see improvements in the halo's around contrasting moving objects, unfortunately I doubt we will see that.

    I have also found a definitive link between the compression in the transmission or video, and the level of PNM artifacts. The more compressed the video is, the worse PNM handles it. This sounds like it would be expected, but I can safely say that other manufacturers implementations handled more compressed material much better. This may also explain why you found better results when maximising NR and MPEG artefact reduction..as I suspect these processes are applied before PNM.

    As I mentioned earlier the primary difference I see is less frame jumping which on a rewind is not there. However, a report above suggests it still happens when the TV CPU is working hard decoding an .mp4 on a HD (or streamed I would think). I will have to check this.

    Just to be clear, if Philips had a better PNM in an older version of the firmware, that is far superior....I have to concur with others who suggest that Philips stop trying to fix this version, and at least for the PNM code, revert back to the 171.x version instead.

  12. #41
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    I updated the firmware last night to 173.52 from 173.51 and I am experimenting 3 issues not reported in this thread, as well as others reported extensively:

    - Frame drops while playing DVD on my bluray player philips BPD3480.
    - TV looses tv signal while watching tv from Ziggo (CI+) in netherlands. It was not happening before.
    - TV randomly switches off very often and after a while switches on again to switch off after few seconds.
    Please advice how can I solve this issue because it is really really bad.

    Other issues that I find, and reported from previous firmware.
    - Decoding DTS from mkv files aparently uses so many resources that TV freezes every once in a while.

    One thing that TV does better since 173.51:
    + Ambilight is dark when tv scene is dark, on previous firmwares when tv scene was dark, Ambilight was turning into warm white, being very annoying, I like it better this way.

    I urgently need a solution for my reboot issue, I hope I can go back for any older firmware to solve the problem. I would like to go to 171.56 but I do not know where I can download the firmware from.

    Thanks in advance for support.
    J.Belm

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyN View Post
    I don't use the light sensor so ...

    What I have seen when I measured the tv is this:

    With the dynamic backlight turned on in standard mode:

    In 171 (and earlier firmwares) 0 Ire (a full black screen) measures 0.02 meaning the backlight is not completely turned off.
    In 173 0 Ire measures 0.00 meaning the backlight is completely turned off.

    That is I believe the cause of the too aggressive dimming problem in standard mode in 173. A simple fix would be to never turn the backlight completely off (like in 171 and earlier) as no algorithm is good enough to translate director intent for instance.

    (I should measure 1 to 10 Ire to see what happens exactly in low APL but to tell the truth, I really can't be bothered anymore, it's something the Philips engineers should do).

    Danny, out of interest which exact model do you have? I have tested mine with a completely black field and the backlight never totally goes off. It gets close to it...but its definitely not completely off. I have a 46PFL8008

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Belm View Post
    ....
    I urgently need a solution for my reboot issue, I hope I can go back for any older firmware to solve the problem. I would like to go to 171.56 but I do not know where I can download the firmware from.

    Thanks in advance for support.
    J.Belm
    J.Belm,

    Did you tried reinstalling the TV?

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  16. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkdragon View Post
    J.Belm,

    Did you tried reinstalling the TV?
    Hi Darkdragon,

    Fortunately, I could find and install an older firmware, the 171.56 and it solved my urgent issue, as well as the dynamic backlight that I use to get darker blacks.
    After the install of this old fw I did a factory reset and now the tv is working as expected.
    I found the ambilight flickering issue on 24hz, but configured the dynamic ambilight at 4 or 5 and it is not there anymore. Very happy for the moment.
    Thanks,
    J.Belm

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    I can not understand how Philips can afford to do things so bad.

    Philips please, use the base 171 firmware and start over. Now you have an idea of ​​what to touch and what not.

    Thanks

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