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  1. #46
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    It is important to know that although the signal is downmixed, due to it’s low frequency, it cannot be heard.
    Thats not correct, sry
    Low Freq. can be heard if you have good and big full freq. speakers and amplifiers.

    If you have a track with only output on .1 (sw) channel it is NOT mixed to the front speakers.

    Ex try the Starwars THX sound test.

    And Yes I have big enough frontspeakers to blow out the windows at any freq.


    I also have a subwoofer that goes down to 18Hz (-3dB). But as I have so good frontspeakers a subwoofer only messes the audio up. So I dont have it conected.

    I'm sorry but this issue has to be tested in a certain way. If I use my old DVD player and run the THX test a low freq sound is heard from the front speakers when testsignal is sending on sw.
    Last edited by Stormen; 01-05-2012 at 01:15 PM.

  2. #47
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    I am boiliing like the water in a 100 degrees centigrade!
    This explanation is for the litlle ignorant kids, i do not believe my eyes!
    There are obviously two possibilities;
    a) The player is defective in its analogue connections and cannot be fixed by software update and Philips is trying to hide it by telling us this childish explanation.
    b) The team, didn't manage to reproduce the problem correctly so they have to pay more attention to our oservations.
    I hope that we are on the case b, and i have to make clear some things in order to help them find and solve the issue.
    I do not have the monsters of stormen as L/R speakers, i have only the B&W 603 s3, and some quite old JBL TLX 18 with a quite big woofer for cross testing. But the problem is evident even with these speakers. Here is only one of my tests;
    1. I am playing the THX Audio Test from Starwars DVD which contains pink noise for subwoofer testing (.1 channel).
    2. I put sub to [no] on the 9600 speaker setup.
    3. The relevant tone is not heard from the L/R speakers.
    4. I disconnect one of the front speakers from my amplifier speaker output and i connect it to its (amplifier) sub output. All the 7.1 RF cables are connected from 9600 7.1 output to Marantz 7.1 inputs. I do not change the 9600 speaker set up as it does not work for the sub channel.
    5. I play again the test and I HEAR THE TONE FOR THE SUBWOOFER FROM MY B&W FRONT SPEAKER WHICH NOW STANDS AS A SUB. In other words i am connecting my front speaker as a sub woofer and i can hear the tone normally from it, even if it is quite low in frequency!!! So my speaker is capable of reproducing the sub test tone 100%.
    6. I connect again all my speakers in their correct place and i play the test changing in the 9600 speaker setup the sub from [no] to [yes] and v.v. trying to hear the same tone as in step 5 from the same speaker; NOTHING.

    THE SUB TEST TONE IS NOT DOWNMIXED TO THE FRONT CHANNELS IN ANY CASE AND IT IS ONLY REPRODUCED THROUGH THE SUB CHANNEL (.1) ANALOGUE OUTPUT EVEN IF YOU HAVE PUT SUBWOOFER [NO] TO 9600 SPEAKER SETUP. OR; IF YOU DON' T HAVE A SUBWOOFER YOU LOSE COMPLETELY THE LFE CHANNEL.PERIOD!

    And finally, if i disconnect 9600 and connect with the same way my old, ancient, model 2000, SONY DVP 725, and play the test tone having put in its menu that there is no subwoofer to my system, I HEAR NORMALY THE .(1) TEST TONE FROM MY FRONT SPEAKERS. SIMPLE!!!!!!

    Dear Philips, we are not writting in this forum for entertainment, we are here because we deal with a problem with a product of yours that it is supposed to give us the real entertainment. I can also say that 9600 is not a KIA but a BMW!! And of course we are not begginers!

    If your 9600 is good, send a new one in Philips Hellas for me to test it and replace my defective device. But what about all the others?
    Are we all ignorants?
    Please try again.
    Last edited by sopon; 01-05-2012 at 04:54 PM.

  3. #48
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    Stormen, i cant believe my eyes! your wall is just too stunning!

  4. #49
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    @ kwinnie,, yeah, they are good. I ealier worked with repairing consumer electronics, Tv's, amplifiers etc and I today like to build my own amplifiers, turntable etc. I later educated to an audioengineer level and worked some in studios. Thats where I met the owner of Rauna and Opus3 who made recordnings and speakers known over the world. These monsters are one of his latest constructions. But now in my garage I', building a 4x 12" tricolumn horn speaker. Thats where Hifi goes over to insanity :-)

    It's a bit tricky to find this audio bug with SW channel not mixed, and I'm trying to understand the answear from philips on how they tested. But as I can read it out: The techician tested by sending low freq on all the output-channels at the same time. Therefor the answear that they cant hear the SW channel mix to the fronts beacuse of the low freq output that is already from the fronts.
    The only way to test this is to have a DVD/or mediafile with audio recorded only on the .1 (don't use the built in speakers test in the bdp9600 menu)

    I'm thinking of making one of my own test DVD using Steinberg Nuendo where a testsignal is sent to one speaker at each chapter, and send to philips.
    There is no way Sopon and I can be more clearly in our desciption of this bug in the firmware.
    Last edited by Stormen; 01-13-2012 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #50
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    Hi,

    maybe an AC3-File or a MKV with a AC3 audio track is sufficient (with a .1 audio stream).

    Toengel@Alex

  6. #51
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    Yeah, that should do. I just tried these 5.1 test files at home.

    just unrar and play through your network.

    http://www.tfm.ro/win32-projects/test-avi-ac3/


    or here, there is some mumbling at the end that is .1 channel
    http://www.lynnepublishing.com/surro...round_test.wma

    Setup BDP9600/12 FW 1,61: Connecting amplifiers at the 7.1 RCA connectors.
    Front: Large
    Center: No
    Surround: Small
    backsurround: No
    Subwoofer: No
    Last edited by Stormen; 01-13-2012 at 01:21 PM.

  7. #52
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    Effect of speaker settings to front speakers

    Hi to all,
    I have a 9600 since 2 weeks and like it a lot. I also use it via analogue audio to my receiver and it took me quite a while to get it running, but now it works.
    I have a normal 5.1 speaker set and the sub didn't work, or at least it didn't seem to work. Now it does but only if I set the front speaker to small.
    I don't have the same problem as some others in this thread but my question is somehow related to it so I dare to post it here:

    What effect does the front speaker setting to "small" or "large" have on the frequency spectrum the 9600 sends to the receiver on the both front channels?
    Is the frequency spectrum identical and it only turns the .1-channel on (small front speakers) or off (large front speakers)?


    Considering previous posts here (e.g. sopon) I tend to assume that there is no effect to the actual frequency spectrum to the front speakers, I just would like to have it confirmed.
    At this time I'm not in the situation wanting the LFE in any case send to the front speakers like sopon, but maybe in the future, so I'm very interested in this topic in any case. Full or more flexibility in the speaker setup would suit the 9600 very nicely.
    Perhaps somebody has tested this out. Or a statement from Philips would be appreciated.
    Thanks for any reply in advance

  8. #53
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    Dear blaster,
    In theory, when you define front speakers as "small", 9600 automatically turns the sub "on".
    So, now you can hear from the sub two things;
    a) The content of the LFE channel from a multichannel program (for ex. DD).
    b) The low frequencies from Front L and R channels that cannot be played from your "small" speakers and they are directed to your sub. The threshold for cutting those frequencies from the front channels is predefined for the 9600 or it can be set by the user in other players that have full bass management.

    So, if L/R = small =>> we have the above (b) changes in the signal for the front speakers.
    But, what you have to check is what is happening if you define that you DO NOT have a sub.
    Does the LFE channel goes to the Front (Large) speakers as it should be in theory?
    It is very easy for you to check while you have a sub in your system.
    Just set sub=no, Front=Large, run a 5.1 test tone program from 9600 (receiver mode;direct), and tell us if you hear the
    LFE test tone from your Front speakers.
    I predict for your test that you will still hear the LFE test tone from your sub!

    IMPORTANT; if you do not have a 5.1 speaker test tone, like for example THX audio test from Starwars DVDs, you cannot say anything for sure about our issue.

    SUM; we should hear whatever we define in 9600 speaker setup menu! Any deviation from this, is a PROBLEM!
    Last edited by sopon; 01-20-2012 at 04:35 PM.

  9. #54
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    @ Sopon,
    thanks for your reply and the time you took to do it.

    I've now done the full test with the test tones as linked above in this thread. They work good. I especially like that the LFE goes from higher to very low frequency.
    Here are my results:
    My 9600 is connected via 5.1 analogue to my receiver, my front speakers are compact Elac (but not satellites, so they are capable of producing fairly decent bass).
    In the following examples the speaker config for the 9600 for Front / Center / Surround / Sub (not rear speakers connected, always set to none).
    1. Small / small / small / On
    I hear the test tones correctly from all speakers including the LFE only from the sub
    2. Large / small / small / On
    Also correct, to me identical to 1.
    3. Large / small / small / Off
    All speakers are correct, no LFE on sub, but also no LFE-signal from front speakers which I would expect, simply no LFE at all.
    4. Small / small / small / Off
    Not possible to set in the speaker config.

    So everything makes fairly sense, except test 3. where the LFE part is lost.
    Then I have done some real music test.
    First a HD-5.1 disc of George Benson. Speaker setting was 2. (Large/small/small/On) and it sounded ok including bass from the sub.
    Then I put a normal CD in. Same setting 2. as above. And no signal on the sub. So the 9600 figured that Large front speaker can do everything. Here I would like to combine full sound range from both front speakers and in parallel also on the sub, but the 9600 thinks differently.
    Same CD, speaker setting to 1. (Small/small/small/On). And here the sub is used by the 9600 which is basically okay, except that I don't have satellites and would like the full sound range from the front speakers (as low as they can go) as well a supporting sub in parallel.

    And this brings me to my initial question of my first post: how is the frequency range for front speakers set to small limited by the 9600? If there is a .1-signal on the source, it seems okay, but without any .1-signal like on a normal CD the setup possibilities to me seems very limited.
    Hey Philips, what do you have to say to that, please give me your comment!
    Last edited by blaster; 01-22-2012 at 08:53 AM.

  10. #55
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    As far as i can understand from your testing, i see two main issues;

    a) In your configuration #3, you verify that if we set sub = no, the LFE is not directed to the front channels, so we have a PROBLEM.

    b) The content of a common CD is a 2 channel material and it does not contain a separate LFE channel. So, the only case to hear something from your sub, is by defining your front speakers as "small". Then the player drives their low frequencies to the sub (by cutting them from the front channels).

    I don't know if there is a player that can support both "large" front speakers and active sub with stereo program (except the pseudosurround systems). In that case there would be an overlap in low frequencies. The fronts and the sub would play the same thing! In theory, small front speakers cannot reproduce low frequencies so you need a sub to cover this disadvantage! We must also understand that LFE is not bass in general, but a separate channel for specific designed Low Frequency Effects.


    I would be very happy if PHILIPS could give us a solution to our primary PROBLEM.

    (Or perhaps they could give us a proper audio test program to verify their argument that there is not such a problem!!!)

  11. #56
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    After my last post, i tried stormen's very nice and useful audio test. I used one of my JBLs as a sub this time, and the LFE test tone was easily reproduced by it.

    The PROBLEM is self-proving for one more time!!!

    I only want to correct a minor detail; in one of my previous posts i had the false impression that no matter [yes] or [no] for the sub in speaker setup, the 9600 would still direct the LFE to the SUB Analogue Output. This is not true, as i saw today.
    If you put [yes], you hear the test tone from the sub.
    If you put [no], you do not hear the test tone from the sub (as i had previously written). But nor from the Fronts! LFE is just disappearing! Exactly as blaster says.

    Well, this doesn't affect the core of our PROBLEM. But this little program can be truly a reference between us and PHILIPS.
    Come on PHILIPS, tell us the news!!!

  12. #57
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    @ sopon,
    your correction of your statement about the sub playing LFE indedepently of the player setting is okay. It is as I have tested it and as you have found out yourself as well.
    So as far as I'm concerned, I guess, my question is comparatively minor. I just would like to know.

    On the other side I see a certain sense in what the player does. In case one has a 5.1 system you want the .1-signal and there is a sub to play it. And in case one has a 5.0 system with huge front speakers one deliberately does not seem to want the .1-signal. I don't have much experience in setting up surround-system so I can't really judge whether this setup is used often or not.
    One thought to your problem is that perhaps it could be solved in the receiver/amplifier. I.e. the receiver/amplifier gets the .1 signal from the player and mixes it with the stereo signals to the front speakers.

    Have a nice week, Sopon.

  13. #58
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    Dear blaster,
    Unfortunately, your argument is wrong.
    You have to make clear to your mind that "channel" is not the same thing as "speaker".
    Speaker setup menu exists in all devices decoding multichannel formats in order to properly adapt and adjust
    the signal to the available speakers of your home cinema.
    When you buy the 9600, nobody tells you that you have to buy also a subwoofer in order to hear the LFE channel!
    On the other hand, Philips is advertising the quality of the analogue part of the 9600, and its 7.1 analogue outputs.
    According to your logic, one has to install 7.1 speakers in order to hear a multichannel program.
    Things, of course are not designed this way! You have the ability to enter the speaker setup menu and say; i have these speakers connected, they are smal or large, i have or i have not a sub. And the player mixes the signal accordingly, in order to hear all the content of your program, regardless of the available speakers! (LFE channel included)
    If i don't have a sub connected, it doesn't mean at all that i don't want the LFE channel!
    On the contrary, i need the player to mix it to the front L/R in order to hear it someway. And believe me, if you have a descent set of front speakers, not to mention the monsters of stormen, a sub could be a waste of money and room.
    What would you say, for example, if you didn't have a center speaker? Would you lose the dialogues? Of course not; by entering the setup, the player would mix it (after 1.61 update!!!) to the front channels. The same is for LFE channel!
    It is needless to say that the optimum surround effect is possible with all the 5.1 or 7.1 speakers. But everyone is free to determine the number of speakers for his system! This is the meaning of "speaker setup menu"!

    My Marantz amplifier, in 7.1 analogue input mode, doesn't allow changes in the incoming signal. You can call it "direct mode". And finaly, this is what we want; The purity of 9600 analogue sound quality! Bypassing, is not a solution anyway.

    I won't get tired to write for one more time; We have a serious PROBLEM here Philips! And as you see, it is present in all 9600s. Do something at last for this.
    Last edited by sopon; 01-25-2012 at 02:09 PM.

  14. #59
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    Hi
    It´s a bit frusterating that we don't know if you at Philips are looking into this problem again ?
    Unrar and play this test audio file through the network.
    http://www.tfm.ro/win32-projects/test-avi-ac3/

  15. #60
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    Hi,

    I will also go into this discussion - give me some days ;-) I need to do some tests at home.

    Toengle@Alex

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