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  1. #16
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    Tanks firefox!
    You're speaking out of my heart!

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    Edit: It has become clear that there is a clear demand for an organised bug report system.
    The forum is a great way to communicate thoughts towards developer and customer services, yet it does not provide an organised way of creating a per firmware bug report. If such a system would be available, customers would be able to easily report & see if their bug is already out in the system (hence avoiding duplicates).

    Take a look @ the bug system created by the open source community : Bugzilla. Used here : http://bugs.winehq.org/ . MAybe take a look, and ventilate your thoughts ?

  3. #18
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    Done. Thanks for your petition.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefox View Post
    Take a look @ the bug system created by the open source community : Bugzilla. Used here : http://bugs.winehq.org/ . MAybe take a look, and ventilate your thoughts ?
    Hi firefox,
    I had a look at that system as you requested. While it is probably great for software developers, that system is way to complex and confusing for Joe Public and they would be frightened away from it.

    This forum works reasonably well and I see the getsatisfaction system as inbetween the two - more organized for bug reporting, yet not so complex and confusing to frighten people away.

    At the end of the day, whatever system is used needs to be a system where the engineers fixing the bugs are going to look. At the moment, that is this forum so any other system can only be used if the technicians are prepared to go with us. Perhaps someone from the Philips engineering staff could tell us which system they would prefer.

    My suggestion is that we could start reporting bugs both here and in the Philips getsatisfaction system in order to test how well such a system is accepted by all.

    Regards

    Peter

  5. #20
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    Hi firefox,

    I think there are several issues.
    First of all, I agree the idea of having an organized way to report bugs would be really helpful in general.

    When I first came to this forum, it was really complicated to find if someone had similar issues, as they were hidden in a number of (often mistitled) threads.
    The threads reporting bugs are often titled along the way "my TV doesn't work", and the description is often too vague to actually reproduce it,
    especially these "my TV reboots occasionally" bugs.

    Peter is right, that the average user will probably not be able to use such a system, but I think this is good as this keeps out the average complain-reports.

    It's really difficult (for us, but also the developers) to identify reported bugs here. Many bugs are distributed over several threads or collected in one post. If they are sorted (and allowed to be moderated and moved by several people), this might actually be helpful.

    But before we start such a thing, I think we really have to get someone from inside Philips in closer. Because right now, we don't even know who&where the developers are (at Philips or Outsourced) and whether they don't care because they delivered and it's finished, or because they don't have time to reproduce and fix the bug.

    Also, my guess is there are many more groups involved than we see right now - I'm not sure the guys for USB/Streaming, Media Player, EPG, NetTV, etc. all sit in the same room/building), and I we don't know if any of these guys are actually _interested_ in having such a thing with a tighter connection to customers. This is what only someone from Philips can comment on and has to push internally.

    I think a more thorough moderation might help, but is of course a lot of work for the moderators.
    Toengel tried this by collecting the bugs and feature requests in a single thread for the 2010 TVs, which in my opinion is very good approach for a forum.
    Stil, I don't know how many of these issues have actually been considered and how many of the devlopers are actually aware of this list.
    Also, many of these points are still unsolved for the 2011 TVs.

    This basically comes back to the why-question. To find a solution, that is accepted by the developers, this must be solved. But this is probably not
    something that Philips will post on their forum ;-)

    If they need more accurate bug reports, or a better list, or a different bug tracking system that allows outsiders to contribute, this must involve people from inside Philips to be accepted.
    @Firefox: if you are willing to set this tracker up, you should probably could try to talk with Thomas or one of the other Philips moderators in private to find out more, but this requires Philips to trust your confidence ;-)
    Maybe Toengel can help?

    I also hate to see Philips struggle heavily here, but if the problem is man-power, I don't know if there's a (realistic) way for us to contribute...

    BR,
    Matthias

    tl;dr:
    - What really helps the developers at Philips? find out through personal contact (moderators?) Does an ordered way of bug reports help?
    - Is the quality of bug reports on this forum good enough, or do we need to be more specific in giving explanations on how to reproduce them reliably?
    Last edited by matthias; 01-12-2012 at 10:16 AM.

  6. #21
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    Just had a look at bugzilla. It looks fine for me, but I didn't create an account.
    I also like the sourceforge bug tracker - maybe more people are already familiar with that one.

    Is there something in the SF usage guidelines that forbids just creating a project to use their bugtracking system, without an actual opensource project?

    Or maybe we can get the SF/jointspace folks to add bug&feature request trackers for TV-Software, with categories like NetTV, Streaming&Network, UI, 3D, USB-Recording, etc. (ie. the subforum topis) and add the users who want to contribute?
    Last edited by matthias; 01-12-2012 at 10:33 AM.

  7. #22
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    Only 4 signs left to fill up 100!!

  8. #23
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    Petition reached 100 signs.

  9. #24
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    turunga good point with the petition.Taking under consideration that only small percentage of users actually do something about bugs I believe philips should take this seriously.
    Honestly if situation won't change in near future I'll probably buy new TV, because current software usability is quite poor.

    I agree with @matthias. There is big mess on the forum - unified bug tracker would be great add on.
    JIRA is nice bug tracker and has nice feature - voting for the issue. So the developer would now what is the most wanted feature/bug fix.

    Regardless of the bug tracker choice is would be great idea.

  10. #25
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    About the petition: I don't support it, because I'm sure Philips is quite aware that the firmware is "problematic". I think "is useless" is an exaggeration, a firmware "without bugs" is unrealistic and these sort of generic statements will most probably not help the cause and will likely put users in the corner of "I will never again buy any Philips device because my Philips TV does not have green dots on the frame, while my Samsung had some in the past."

    However, I like the idea of a (managed) bug&feature tracker with exact descriptions on how to (reliably and quickly) reproduce a bug, including links to sample files, details on the used hardware/software etc.
    Maybe a macro recorder/player in combination with a Jointspace app will help here.

    About Jira: Can we use it for free? And unless you already have it working on a server of yours and can add a Philips TV page, I'd rather use an available system, such as Sourceforge/Google Code/Github/... without the need for my own server.

    Sourceforge can only edit bug status/title and add new comments - no editing text and comments after they were posted.
    To keep the list clean, I think we need something like this.
    Anyone know if this is possible with one of the other hosted bug trackers?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthias View Post
    About the petition: I don't support it, because I'm sure Philips is quite aware that the firmware is "problematic". I think "is useless" is an exaggeration, a firmware "without bugs" is unrealistic and these sort of generic statements will most probably not help the cause and will likely put users in the corner of "I will never again buy any Philips device because my Philips TV does not have green dots on the frame, while my Samsung had some in the past."
    Green dots are one think, mabye even imaginary
    The point is that when you are buyig the device you you have some requirements or I rather say habits because there are some unwritten usability/industry standards ex. all laptops must have wi-fi and all video player should have certain features like ability to play all popular video formats and ability to select scene/go to custom time of the movie...

    Quote Originally Posted by matthias View Post
    However, I like the idea of a (managed) bug&feature tracker with exact descriptions on how to (reliably and quickly) reproduce a bug, including links to sample files, details on the used hardware/software etc.
    Maybe a macro recorder/player in combination with a Jointspace app will help here.

    About Jira: Can we use it for free? And unless you already have it working on a server of yours and can add a Philips TV page, I'd rather use an available system, such as Sourceforge/Google Code/Github/... without the need for my own server.
    Unfortunately JIRA isn't free, but don't you think that philips itself should handle this?

    Quote Originally Posted by matthias View Post
    Sourceforge can only edit bug status/title and add new comments - no editing text and comments after they were posted.
    To keep the list clean, I think we need something like this.
    Anyone know if this is possible with one of the other hosted bug trackers?
    Aren't Sourceforge/Github etc. for open source projects? Not sure if we can use them like this.

  12. #27
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    I was reading through the posts of this thread and was asking me what is its purpose?

    Some want a public defect/bug tracking system allowing the end-users to directly contact developers. The first post wants the users to vote for a "better" firmware. Which makes me ask: "What is a better firmware?".

    Better includes everything: bug fixing, new features, changing existing features or everything else what one can imagine. So why not vote for it?
    Even Philips can say: "Yes, we will provide a better firmware". And they are right. They provide new firmwares, which are "better". For my 2010 TV is was the case several times. Just have a look at the release log.
    But after every update, you will find people whose expectations are not met.
    So what does this thread want to say?


    If there are many bugs, which won't be solved, contact the dealer as long as you have guarantee. This is the most effective way to increase pressure on the bug fixing from your side.

    But I think as long as Philips is actively moderating, they can fix the problems which are posted here and improve products as much as they want.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by smart View Post
    I was reading through the posts of this thread and was asking me what is its purpose?
    Some want a public defect/bug tracking system allowing the end-users to directly contact developers. The first post wants the users to vote for a "better" firmware. Which makes me ask: "What is a better firmware?".
    You're right - there are two things mixed here. Maybe a moderator can split this in two threads.

    I agree - Philips _is improving the firmware, so there's no difference between the petition and a simple new thread here.

    Quote Originally Posted by smart View Post
    If there are many bugs, which won't be solved, contact the dealer as long as you have guarantee. This is the most effective way to increase pressure on the bug fixing from your side.

    But I think as long as Philips is actively moderating, they can fix the problems which are posted here and improve products as much as they want.
    Yes, they can and they do, and they do this also with a priority that makes sense imo (e.g. start with sound drops, etc).

    The thing is there are still a number of issues open, which is probably a manpower issue at Philips.

    I think, one of the things we as users can actually improve is the quality of the bug reports.
    A few bugs occur only in specific conditions and the problem descriptions here are not sufficient to reproduce them.

    There are a lot of different threads talking about the same issue, and also "all-in" threads that talk on several issues.
    This makes it difficult to keep track of the different "environments" these bugs occur.
    This could be solved by a more strict moderation by Philips, but this is again a manpower issue

    So the advantage of having "our own" bug tracker is basically:
    - not Philips, but users handle them, so the time-consuming sorting of bugs is offloaded from Thomas et al
    - new users have a quick way of actually finding out if a bug has been reported already (without the need to find out that Toengel's 2010 list is actually the collection they were looking for ;-)
    - users can provide their specific way to reproduce a certain bug. By being moderated, this does not get lost in the currently many "I'm just unhappy/disappointed/angry/..." posts inbetween these threads.

    Basically, this does not need to be a bug tracker. A strictly moderated subforum specifically for Bugs, Requests, etc. with one thread per bug is probably fine. This could also be done by giving a few of the users moderator status, but I'm not sure if the Philips guys want/may do that.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by panel View Post
    Unfortunately JIRA isn't free, but don't you think that philips itself should handle this?
    Well, I think the problem is manpower. If they had enough resources, this would not be necessary. I think, the main advantage of having this is to allow users to take care of managing this. Doesn't need to be a bug tracker - could even be a forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by panel View Post
    Aren't Sourceforge/Github etc. for open source projects? Not sure if we can use them like this.
    Not sure either. Maybe if it's part of the jointspace project?

  15. #30
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    Hi! I'll share some annoying things in my 32PFL3606H/58 2.20 firmware. This kind of software makes the usage of the TV hard even for someone who has many years experience in multimedia technology due to its illogicalness. There are NO settings in the menu which could solve these.

    - When I switch to a digital channel there isn't a programme information panel which is shown on most set top boxes. I have to enter to Options -> What's on and then I can check the current and the next programme. That's really uncomfortable!
    - EPG doesn't show up in transparent mode so while I'm checking out the guide the TV programme stops and the table has a silent black background.
    - When switching to an unsubscribed channel, Conax Conditional Access window keeps appearing with the message 'No Access' making me almost unable to select another channel from the list as this window comes up again and again despite of closing it. Okay, I should remove unsubscribed channels from the list but this is not a real solution.
    - Channel grid is VERY annoying! Why can't Philips make a normal channel list where one can select a channel by moving up and down? Or at least to do this grid normally, I mean when I reach the end of a row and want to step right, the cursor wouldn't go to the next page, rather the next row. The way this is designed is completely illogical.
    - Some USB devices such as external hard drives, digital cameras and card readers aren't recognized.
    - Sleep timer can only be accessed through the menu (Home -> Settings -> TV settings -> Preferences -> Sleep timer). Why did they make it so hard to find? Other remote controllers DO have a Sleep button, why Philips ones don't? For example, the blue selector button could do it, or at least they could create a Sleep timer submenu in Options...
    - Hungarian translation is awful! It's full of mistakes.

    Don't misunderstand, I like Philips products but this firmware really sucks. I think since devices have the option of software update, manufacturers feel free to release their products with buggy, incomplete firmware.
    I've just written my opinion, but I hardly believe that any changes would be done. Making senseless petitions and fighting against bad firmware here is like talking to a brickwall. But hope dies last

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