47pfl6877t

[letsmakethingsbetter]

About bee movie, do you get as close as what I posted ?

Did some testing today and can confirm artefacts on my 37PFL6007.

Most striking for me was the scene at 2:15 - 2:18 while the small bee shouts "I can't believe I'm out!".
With HDNM turned on the small bees legs are "flashing", that is they are disappearing and reappearing at a fast rate before a bright blue sky. The effect gets worse with increased setting of HDNM.

With HDNM set to "off" everything is fine.

Regards,
letsmakethingsbetter

[Manuj]

Thanks for testing.

I did the video, time to post on youtube, maybe tomorrow.

In the meantime here is a new set of files (same 4 videos + 5th)
The philips embedded player did not like the video without audio so I corrected that.
And I added a 5th video to show that small objects "flicker" (small stars).

I've had a few more questions in PM with Benedickte (about my settings, serial number). It seems that they are concerned but I'm sure other testers are welcomed. And also to say that there's nothing you can't bear yourself. This is fine with me and fair to tell what you think.

[_Stephan]

Will you be able to find original screenshot versus TV bad output ?
The problem can even be seen on these small thumbnails !!!!

Today I updated to the latest firmware and played around with your video. So thanks for this easy to use case to replicate Manuj, I hope Philips will do the same.

HD Natural Motion settings:
High - the exact same issue as the image above. The bee's antenna dissapears. Exactly the same as in the lower screenshot
Medium - same
Low - same
Off - The video looks okay! I can see the antennas when switching off HDNM

So the solution for this video is to kill the HDNM availibility. However I do see other content (e.g. Films where at the beginning the film title is huge fonts is displayed at the start off the against a moving background) the do require smoothening. But I expect the HDNM option to make things better, not making it worse!

So the HDNM has a bug, it's not working for the 6xx7 series. My question/suggestion to Philips is that it might have to do with the fact that the 6xx7 series have LG panels and the 7 and 8 serieshave Samsung, and the firmware works faulty for the LG panels. Could anyone please confirm? Or at least fix this bug? Cause I am pretty annoyed by the lack of progress by now!

[Manuj]

_Stephan is not from my family and I did not pay him either

Anyway here is the first video about artifacts with my own ugly video

And second video

DO NOT FORGET to switch to higher quality under youtube. I tried to set automatic 720p from links, but 1080p is selectable.

Please look at static objects, and let moving object cross. You'll see artifacts much better.
such as first videos = keep looking at thick lines on the low right

I hate to say that, but in reality it is worse. I think youtube encoder is softening.
And yes, I should have used a tripod...
Test on your own.

[mrb1972]

Today I updated to the latest firmware and played around with your video. So thanks for this easy to use case to replicate Manuj, I hope Philips will do the same.

HD Natural Motion settings:
High - the exact same issue as the image above. The bee's antenna dissapears. Exactly the same as in the lower screenshot
Medium - same
Low - same
Off - The video looks okay! I can see the antennas when switching off HDNM

So the solution for this video is to kill the HDNM availibility. However I do see other content (e.g. Films where at the beginning the film title is huge fonts is displayed at the start off the against a moving background) the do require smoothening. But I expect the HDNM option to make things better, not making it worse!

So the HDNM has a bug, it's not working for the 6xx7 series. My question/suggestion to Philips is that it might have to do with the fact that the 6xx7 series have LG panels and the 7 and 8 serieshave Samsung, and the firmware works faulty for the LG panels. Could anyone please confirm? Or at least fix this bug? Cause I am pretty annoyed by the lack of progress by now!

Other people have confirmed the problem on the 7 and 8 series too I beleive

[Manuj]

Still unclear about other series from what I recall.
I thought several time that only 6xx7 were concerned, just one post about 8007.
But I may be wrong.

[mrb1972]

Still unclear about other series from what I recall.
I thought several time that only 6xx7 were concerned, just one post about 8007.
But I may be wrong.

Someone on avforums tested the bee movie on the 8007 reporting the same results

[letsmakethingsbetter]

Trying again. Could anyone confimr this is functional ?

Here is a new set of files (same 4 videos + 5th)

Thanks for providing the test videos - I played around with them checking different HDNM settings on my 37PFL6007.

It shows very nicely how HDNM removes the blurryness of the moving objects but introduces artefacts as they are passing in front of other objects.

On the other hand, without HDNM objects are really, really blurry, even on my PC (no display lagging or lack of computing power here ). And some artefacts, especially round the border of the moving circle, are even clearly visible without HDNM on my TV as well as on my PC. So I guess they are due to the lossy video compression method used?

Overall I think yes, HDNM does not look very good on these videos. But to serve as a valid "test suite" for HDNM the clips need further improvement, so they constitute a valid, real-world test case.

Regards,
letsmakethingsbetter

[Manuj]

I will try to make a better compression (output rendered files are 2 GB and I only succeeeded using XVID 1080p 1 pass).
If someone can point me to an XP tool or good codec...

[aise]

Someone on avforums tested the bee movie on the 8007 reporting the same results

that was me, i will test the new vids later today. 8007 has the same issues as 6007, probably the whole line has these issues.

[Manuj]

I will try to make a better compression (output rendered files are 2 GB and I only succeeeded using XVID 1080p 1 pass).
If someone can point me to an XP tool or good codec...

Here is the link for file called V9, using x264 encoder
Frame by frame output in Virtualdub looks razor sharp.
I don't have the capacity to test on TV until tonight and I can't do the other vids (the V12 with little stars was supposed to show "flickering").

Also remember that we will always see some visual effect. Because of interpolation and because of human eye (our vision is bad with vertical lines and movement since our brain is trying to predict the future, want some fun ?).

In my mind the goal is to prove there is a defect in Philips' algorithm handling. But I'm not a Pro at all in video, just willing to have a better product.
Comparing with a PC sounds fair to me (60hz in most cases).
Don't you think ?

[NaC]

Here is the link for file called V9, using x264 encoder
Frame by frame output in Virtualdub looks razor sharp.
I don't have the capacity to test on TV until tonight and I can't do the other vids (the V12 with little stars was supposed to show "flickering").

Also remember that we will always see some visual effect. Because of interpolation and because of human eye (our vision is bad with vertical lines and movement since our brain is trying to predict the future, want some fun ?).

In my mind the goal is to prove there is a defect in Philips' algorithm handling. But I'm not a Pro at all in video, just willing to have a better product.
Comparing with a PC sounds fair to me (60hz in most cases).
Don't you think ?

Manuj Hi,
Did Philips contact you? Can you tell us what is happening?
Philips, can you please tell us what the status of HDNM issue on pfl6007 models? Have you performed a risk assessment for that issue? What are the corrective actions?
Can you please replay and update us
Thanks

[fx.design]

I've got the exact same HDNM problems thats being reported all over the place.
I must say that I didn't really noticed the problem that much when watching movies.
Just tested Manuj 5 test-clips and it wasn't a good experience to say the least.
The moving gradient blocks where just horrible.

TV: 47pfl6007T - FW 0.150.48.13

[Manuj]

Manuj Hi,
Did Philips contact you? Can you tell us what is happening?
Philips, can you please tell us what the status of HDNM issue on pfl6007 models? Have you performed a risk assessment for that issue? What are the corrective actions?
Can you please replay and update us
Thanks

Yes, Benedickte was asking for more information in order for her to help push forward again to developpers. You know settings, some more indications, well, she was doing her job to be the best interface she can for us.
But we have to wait... Still !
In the meantime keep posting in reviews about that issue. The problem is gently coming into first pages of google/youtube with some keywords.

What's happening ? : I have no clue. Software/hardware both ? Well, Yes both !

Status on pfl6007 models ? : well I know as much as written here and there. But I'd rather have Philips status. Quite a few people say 8xx7 serie is also affected.

Risk assessment : I wish I could make it ! Philips has the right inputs to acknowledge.
Some people try to guess about shared electronics between models, but this is still unclear.
Many, Many people (annoyed) have switched to PNM (using service menu access that is said to void the warranty) and are happier with result. Still not perfect but much better as I heard. This also explains why there's less activity on this topic here, which is bad I think.

As I know I'll have to return my panel (I have a loose ambilight), I don't want to make that move in service menu before it gets repaired. But I will.

Corrective action ? I'm sure you mean correction! ("Corrective action" is for Philips to stop shipping defective products, which I don't care much right now). So correction is again Philips'. The good news is that it can improve since the unrecommended code makes a better outcome.

Now my guess...
We'll finally get something (I'm overall optimistic), but it will still not be that good because hardware is at its limits (this is my realistic side).
My real concern is that the development department, then Quality department, let release publicly such a bad outcome.
Even if they can improve, this may not be prioritize at Philips (unless we let the world know about it, and now, before christmas sells because then it will be 2013 models coming in march or so).

So keep posting in forums of your own language, here as well, vote for youtube videos, if you find reviews then post a comment and link to videos or forum thread. But keep moving.
There are interesting discussions in other forum, I think we should crosspost here (for Benedickte to read). And this shows people are still concerned.

Well, I'll get back to some testing. also for releasing other videos. Not to prove anything else new, but to keep pushing forward. I still have a few more ideas to show a bit further.
Anyone finding bad artifacts into trailers for instance, should post here or in the firmware thread.

[Manuj]

Ok, I made better input files with X264 (Much better from xvid).

There was some stuttering that are now gone. I don't care if this was the Philips player or xvid encoding. Out of topic.
But artifacts are same

Here are the 2 files newly coded with x264 codec (one of the best blueray codec).

moving lines V12 camera output file, 55MB from my Camera in case Philips interested.

Then I will update youtube videos another day.