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Topic: 47pfl6877t

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  1. #331
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    Anyone here from the uk and has got a 2012 model with sky+ HD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Stephan View Post
    Now back to the HDNM issue (why isn't there a seperate topic?) here something really interesting I hope the mods can pick up on:

    So, the 'judder' and 'artefact' issues as described in detail over here when you set HD Natural Motion to 'minium' or at a higher level due to a bug. I experience them, but when I switch of HDNM alltogether it's ok. (not good but ok)

    So here I was watching a TV drama episode on Sunday, and bang, weird artefacts and shadows around the TV shows logo when the camera was moving vertically or a person was walkings from right to left on the screen against a static background. I went almost through the roof, my HDNM was switched off I was sure about that!

    Now here's the thing: I had my subtitles on. Not .srt subtitles from a USB source or BluRay, but the subtitles when you watch analogue cable television via Teletekst.

    So having a teletekst subtitles layer over your picture creates the exact same artefacts as HDNM. Weird isn't it?

    I hope again the moderators can pick up on that and pass it on to technical support.

    My firmware - latest
    My TV - 37pfl6007
    Cable - Analogue
    Subtitles - on
    Channel - Nederland 3
    TV show - Penoza II
    Yes, HDNM off will remove any of the problem detailed in this thread.
    There is no question about that. We are discussing a defective Motion compensation.

    I did turn off that HDNM myself for the time being.

    Sounds strange that your HDNM was OFF and you still get problems. Maybe you wrongly validated HDNM to OFF (don't quit the overlay menu with "home" button, you have to first validate the mode by using "back" button).
    Last edited by Manuj; 11-28-2012 at 12:33 PM. Reason: clarification of last paragraph

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuj View Post
    I did turn off that HDNM myself for the time being.
    Have you noticed any weird brief stuttering effect on peoples faces or news tickers etc with HDNM off?

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuj View Post
    Sounds strange that your HDNM was OFF and you still get problems. Maybe you wrongly validated HDNM to OFF (don't quit the overlay menu with "home" button, you have to first validate the mode by using "back" button).
    Nope, it was 100% sure switched off. I haven't touched this functionality in 14 days, hence why blood-pressure went through the roof!

    My point being, I did have a layer over my screen, being good old fashioned Teletekst subtitles. On the BBC and in the Netherlands at least Teletekst allows you to add subtitles to TV-programmes.

    And having HDNM switched off, but subtitles via teletekst ON, results in the exact same artefacts and ghosting as if Telekst were off and HDNM on.
    And I'm not talking HDNM juddering/artifacts around the subtitles, but on the far other end of the screen being the channel's logo.

    Maybe it's the programming if this (and some other) layers that causes issues? I'm just trying to pin-point the technical issue here, and I think this is quite remarkable dat 2 functionalities that are not even remotely linked can cause the same issue.
    Last edited by _Stephan; 11-28-2012 at 02:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrb1972 View Post
    Have you noticed any weird brief stuttering effect on peoples faces or news tickers etc with HDNM off?
    Yes, with HDNM - OFF bit Pixel Precise - ON I get this effect.

    Especially in talkshows, when the camera switches from one person's face to the next, it stutters, like there is half a second slow-motion going on.

    Is that what you mean?

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrb1972 View Post
    Have you noticed any weird brief stuttering effect on peoples faces or news tickers etc with HDNM off?
    Not that much. It has happened but I thought that was my external setup PC+XBMC (I did not double check using a USB stick as I have always done so far before posting something here). I was not disturbed that much anyway.

    But I must say I only set it OFF last week-end. Also because a few people were okay with HDNM OFF so I felt I should try. Also to decide whether I will keep this TV (and all the good points such as passive 3D or image quality)

    I also have the feeling I will have to get used to HDNM OFF... Prove me wrong Philips
    ... even if I was planning on using it when I bought this TV...

    I think it is best for my brain that can see so easily problems when HDNM is ON. I could see it from day 1, but with testing it is worse now. I know when and what will happen ! I know what is lost in moving scenes, not only moving objects that flicker, but panning when the scene collapse. It's hard for me to figure out how a few people can keep HDNM, maybe same thing for them to understand what I may be seeing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuj View Post
    Not that much. It has happened but I thought that was my external setup PC+XBMC (I did not double check using a USB stick as I have always done so far before posting something here). I was not disturbed that much anyway.

    But I must say I only set it OFF last week-end. Also because a few people were okay with HDNM OFF so I felt I should try. Also to decide whether I will keep this TV (and all the good points such as passive 3D or image quality)

    I also have the feeling I will have to get used to HDNM OFF... Prove me wrong Philips
    ... even if I was planning on using it when I bought this TV...

    I think it is best for my brain that can see so easily problems when HDNM is ON. I could see it from day 1, but with testing it is worse now. I know when and what will happen ! I know what is lost in moving scenes, not only moving objects that flicker, but panning when the scene collapse. It's hard for me to figure out how a few people can keep HDNM, maybe same thing for them to understand what I may be seeing
    I turned it off a few days ago as well to see what it was like, however I am getting bad stuttering but I think it could be my sky HD box so will try some blu rays later.

  8. #338
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    Hello,

    I have the same problem like gstan with the picture. Is there any news about this problem how to solve it?

    Here is a short cut that i have filmed with my mobile camera when the picture gets crazy on my tv PFL 6788Thehe

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guHE_ewozYs&feature=plcp

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    PFL 6877T Problem with juddering

    Hello,

    I have the same problem like Gstan with the picture. Is the any solution to this problem? Do anywon now?

    Here is a link of my tv when the picture gets crazy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guHE_ewozYs&feature=plcp

  10. #340
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    @Stephan I haven't seen anything like that. But will post if that happens (well I should first watch a film!).
    Since I don't have TV, I don't often see channel logos. And I don't display subtitles at all...

  11. #341
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    @Stephan : I also had some problems with a blueray in 3D mode. HDNM and Clearlcd were off for sure.

    In 2D, with HDNM OFF, I'm sure most problems due to "motion processing" disappear on clips I posted here and on youtube. Like bee movie, or urban acrobat clips.

    So I do believe we have not understood everything.
    Hopefully Philips is working at it.

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    what are the improvments on the latest software Version: 000.150.048.014
    Can find any info about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knubbo View Post
    what are the improvments on the latest software Version: 000.150.048.014
    Can find any info about it.
    Never mind , find it

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    Hello everybody.

    I have had the 47pfl6877T for about 4 - 5 months now. I have complained to Philips many times, but the tv was still stuffed with flaws i software.

    At last i complained to the Danish Elgiganten where the tv was puschased..

    The Store quickly replied that they would take back the tv, and i could instead buy another one.
    I was not the only one who had complained, and they know of the many problems with the tv.

    I will for sure miss the ambilight, and nice remote, but i do REALLY look forward to a stable tv, without 10 + software flaws.

    I would recommend you all to complain the place that the tv is purchased, perhaps they will offer a bit more help than philips does..

    For me, bye bye philips... Never again!

    Best regards,
    Last edited by Sejer84; 12-05-2012 at 07:42 AM. Reason: Typos

  15. #345
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    Dear customers,

    Thank you all for your extensive feedback. It is really appreciated. We of course regret that this topic has led to so many questions and discussions and herewith would like to give our view.

    First of all, you need to know that picture quality, or how one perceives it, has many variables including source material (compression factor, bit rate), source device, source input, TV settings, software version, watching distance, etc.
    This all makes it quite difficult to judge TV’s and to come to reliable, convincing conclusions.

    The feature Natural Motion (as we at Philips call it) has been introduced to compensate the motion judder in, for example, MOVIE material. Those are 24 Hz recordings that need special processing to look good at displays with 50 Hz - or more - refresh rates (perfectly explained by "Petasis" in this post).
    However, by doing this, side effects may be introduced. This is not different with competition and is linked to this kind of processing.

    We have executed an extensive test on our own models (2012 6000-, 8000-, and 9000-series) and also were able to compare them with some of the equivalent competition sets.
    For the test, all TV’s were set to their default picture settings (for Philips this means NATURAL smart mode, where Natural Motion is set to MEDIUM). They all were connected to the same source device and fed with the same source material.

    As source material we used some examples you’ve referred to and some others:
    1. “Bee Movie”: antenna scene,
    2. “White Collar S01E01”: jail bar scene,
    3. “Jessica Parker” (Star Trek),
    4. “Sniper”,
    5. “Gladiator”.

    This is what we found:
    1. Playing the Bee Movie scene at 13m30 (where the bees lift off and pass their general), we see on all TV's the same behaviour like you reported: the general's antennas disappear temporary.
    2. Also the scene with the jail bars in "White Collar" at 6m07, show exactly the same behaviour on all tested models: there are artefacts visible in the jail bars while they pass by.
    Note that using the Natural Motion setting "MIN, enables the algorithm to detect these scenes", and prevents automatically the algorithm to operate on these particular scenes by falling back to the original input format.
    3. This is typically a scene where Philips Natural Motion is outperforming competition on fast catch-in from the start of the movement.
    4. This is typically a clip with fast motion where Philips Natural Motion is still capable of following the fast speed.
    5. This is typically a clip with complex motion where competition models are trying to mask their problems by preventing the Natural Motion feature to operate and fall back to judder mode. Philips Natural Motion is holding longer.

    As explained above, the noted effects are normal and expected behaviour.
    They are a result of the incoming material, which has judder inside (24/25/30p film), and defined by the used picture processing technologies and choices made.
    The fact that some of you experience this as a fault, cannot be acknowledged, and is really a matter of TV settings, source material, and personal perception.
    There is nothing wrong with our television equipment and, compared to competition, Philips Natural Motion has certainly clear advantages in many scenes.

    We really want to offer the customer the most optimal viewing experiences on their Philips flat TV’s, and in that extend we have noted down the specific scenes where some of you are complaining about and we are investigating whether we can even further improve on these. If this would be possible, we will bring this to all customers as a software update, further improving the performance beyond what we already offer per today.

    Our final conclusion is that our 2012 models fully behave as specified, and are at least on par with (and in some cases better than) competition on Picture Quality.


    Kind regards,
    JuAn
    Last edited by Philips; 12-07-2012 at 03:00 PM.
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