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  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philips View Post
    Dear customers,

    Thank you all for your extensive feedback. It is really appreciated. We of course regret that this topic has led to so many questions and discussions and herewith would like to give our view.

    First of all, you need to know that picture quality, or how one perceives it, has many variables including source material (compression factor, bit rate), source device, source input, TV settings, software version, watching distance, etc.
    This all makes it quite difficult to judge TV’s and to come to reliable, convincing conclusions.

    The feature Natural Motion (as we at Philips call it) has been introduced to compensate the motion judder in, for example, MOVIE material. Those are 24 Hz recordings that need special processing to look good at displays with 50 Hz - or more - refresh rates (perfectly explained by "Petasis" in this post).
    However, by doing this, side effects may be introduced. This is not different with competition and is linked to this kind of processing.

    We have executed an extensive test on our own models (2012 6000-, 8000-, and 9000-series) and also were able to compare them with some of the equivalent competition sets.
    For the test, all TV’s were set to their default picture settings (for Philips this means NATURAL smart mode, where Natural Motion is set to MEDIUM). They all were connected to the same source device and fed with the same source material.

    As source material we used some examples you’ve referred to and some others:
    1. “Bee Movie”: antenna scene,
    2. “White Collar S01E01”: jail bar scene,
    3. “Jessica Parker” (Star Trek),
    4. “Sniper”,
    5. “Gladiator”.

    This is what we found:
    1. Playing the Bee Movie scene at 13m30 (where the bees lift off and pass their general), we see on all TV's the same behaviour like you reported: the general's antennas disappear temporary.
    2. Also the scene with the jail bars in "White Collar" at 6m07, show exactly the same behaviour on all tested models: there are artefacts visible in the jail bars while they pass by.
    Note that using the Natural Motion setting "MIN, enables the algorithm to detect these scenes", and prevents automatically the algorithm to operate on these particular scenes by falling back to the original input format.
    3. This is typically a scene where Philips Natural Motion is outperforming competition on fast catch-in from the start of the movement.
    4. This is typically a clip with fast motion where Philips Natural Motion is still capable of following the fast speed.
    5. This is typically a clip with complex motion where competition models are trying to mask their problems by preventing the Natural Motion feature to operate and fall back to judder mode. Philips Natural Motion is holding longer.

    As explained above, the noted effects are normal and expected behaviour.
    They are a result of the incoming material, which has judder inside (24/25/30p film), and defined by the used picture processing technologies and choices made.
    The fact that some of you experience this as a fault, cannot be acknowledged, and is really a matter of TV settings, source material, and personal perception.
    There is nothing wrong with our television equipment and, compared to competition, Philips Natural Motion has certainly clear advantages in many scenes.

    We really want to offer the customer the most optimal viewing experiences on their Philips flat TV’s, and in that extend we have noted down the specific scenes where some of you are complaining about and we are investigating whether we can even further improve on these. If this would be possible, we will bring this to all customers as a software update, further improving the performance beyond what we already offer per today.

    Our final conclusion is that our 2012 models fully behave as specified, and are at least on par with (and in some cases better than) competition on Picture Quality.


    Kind regards,
    JuAn
    Thanks for the update - let the chaos begin..

    Seriously though this was the answer I was expecting - are you able to tell us which competition sets you tried

  2. #347
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    Thanks for the feedback, always better than stay mute.

    As I wrote before, the worst video of all in my perspective is "Urban Acrobat".
    This is already in 60Hz and almost un-watchable.
    By any chance, was it tested as well ?

    As mrb1972 stated, can you please tell which competitors sets were tested so that we can also forge our own opinion, and most probably agree after testing ?

    Anyone else is able to tell me why we can't see problems on 60Hz monitors ?
    We should all get same kind of problems watching 24fps inputs, right ?

  3. #348
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    I suggest that in testing include the following clip:
    "Urban Acrobat".
    ...as previously mentioned Manuj.

    thanks for reply!...The looong awaited.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojoman View Post
    Hi!

    I have just bought the Philips 47pfl6877t. It has occurred to times now, that when I have switched the off and on, all the colors on the screen have turned blue/green. This is quite frustrating and I'm afraid I have to return my tv right away.

    Is this an error you are familiar with?

    I am running the current software: QF1EU-0.132.5.3

    Hopefully I'll hear from you as soon as possible.

    I have taken a photo of it, if it helps - I can email it to you if possible.

    Thanks in advance,

    Poul
    Do you look at tv signal ore signal from a connected source?

  5. #350
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    Ok just be ours one movie is bad, then is the TV defect? Don't you think it is the movie. And Philips tv is the only TV set there can show mistake in the DVD. I think this is the problem TV is fast and can show the mistake there is in every DVD disc.

  6. #351
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    Looks not good, is the material you are looking on OK?

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog85 View Post
    Guys, come on! You are really nitpicking in my opinion.
    Take this "Top Gun" example from "hermetic": from a movie of 6600 seconds, you pick a few seconds of bad motion behaviour and say that your TV is bad??!! What about the rest of the movie?
    Every current TV has more or less problems with (extreme) motion scenes, as already explained earlier in this thread (I think it was "Petasis"). Improving motion judder will worsen other things (and vice versa).
    You also blame a 6000-series TV, while this is almost the lowest in the Philips range that has natural motion compensation.... If you want better spec's, pay some more money and buy the top model, they have more processing power.
    Same counts for "Manuj", who is using all kind of scenes that are meant to let TV's work on its limits, and then picks out 1 or 2 scenes (few seconds) saying the TV is rubbish. Please return to reality guys!

    Kind regards, WD85.
    I agree, the mistake is in the Material you are looking on, there is a lot off mistake in DVD, Philips TV has a quit fast engine that men's you can see the mistake on a Philips and not on other brand.

  8. #353
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    @ Hansen

    You registered here to say that crap?
    Philips TV has a quit fast engine that men's you can see the mistake on a Philips and not on other brand.
    you serious?
    And Philips tv is the only TV set there can show mistake in the DVD.
    DVD is the future. We still use VHS. And all of the material that is listed here is VHS quality.
    The resolution is 352x240 (quite large) with 3 MHz of a video bandwidth, sound is mono, unfortunately.

  9. #354
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    bottom line is nothing but still picture is watchable when the motion system is activated (HDNM or PNM). just watched ParaNorman 3D yesterday and after 10 min i turned it off. panning scenes are a nightmare to watch.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by aise View Post
    bottom line is nothing but still picture is watchable when the motion system is activated (HDNM or PNM). just watched ParaNorman 3D yesterday and after 10 min i turned it off. panning scenes are a nightmare to watch.
    you do not understand this:
    Philips TV has a quit fast engine that men's you can see the mistake on a Philips and not on other brand.

  11. #356
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    Two examples of the errorous PNM of my 1800 Euro pfl8007, just because Philips says that the PNM behavior is correct:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKVeKjXESvw

    and

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrbE...o&feature=plcp

    I took those examples, because the issue is seen very good here. In real live, it is not the logos and info bars that really matter, these issues are seen in normal pictures.

    Police officer slowly walks in front of those typical blinds (jalousie) and his head gets one with this blind, showing some kind of wave pattern. Or a ski jumper in front of the forrest who becomes some kind of fluid because of PNM

    The issue is, that this faulty pictures are caused by PNM and these things are visible in any fast moving picture. This is annoying and you're not right when you say, that other maufactureres are not performing better. In fact they do. PNM causes really annoying errors under some circumstances. You are right that performance of PNM depends on the quality of the signal but the errors are seen even when watching Bluray. Just watch the big fight in the beginning of Lord of the Rings. You can even follow the quick fighting scenes because PNM is killing the picture. And it's the 400, 600, 800, 1200 Hertz you are very proud of in your ads. These marketing Mhz amaunt is called PNM. And this is absolutely not working correctly. In fact they are not usable at all.
    Last edited by tvkc; 12-10-2012 at 08:26 AM.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvkc View Post
    Two examples of 300 Euro models outperforming my 1800 Euro pfl8007:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKVeKjXESvw

    and

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrbE...o&feature=plcp

    I took those examples, because the issue is seen very good here. In real live, it is not the logos and info bars that really matter, these issues are seen in normal pictures.

    Police officer slowly walks in front of those typical blinds (jalousie) and his head gets one with this blind, showing some kind of wave pattern. Or a ski jumper in front of the forrest who becomes some kind of fluid because of PNM

    The issue is, that this faulty pictures are caused by PNM and these things are visible in any fast moving picture. This is annoying and you're not right when you say, that other maufactureres are not performing better. In fact they do. PNM causes really annoying errors under some circumstances. You are right that performance of PNM depends on the quality of the signal but the errors are seen even when watching Bluray. Just watch the big fight in the beginning of Lord of the Rings. You can even follow the quick fighting scenes because PNM is killing the picture. And it's the 400, 600, 800, 1200 Hertz you are very proud of in your ads. These marketing Mhz amaunt is called PNM. And this is absolutely not working correctly. In fact they are not usable at all.
    As I can see it's 1800 euro examples only, where are the 300 euro ones?

  13. #358
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    This was a rhetorical sentence. I just showed the errors of the actual configuration of PNM, which NO other TV has like this, no matter how expensive it is.

    But you are right, my formulation could be misleading. I edited my post above
    Last edited by tvkc; 12-10-2012 at 08:28 AM.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvkc View Post
    This was a rhetorical sentence. I just showed the errors of the actual configuration of PNM, which NO other TV has like this, no matter how expensive it is.

    But you are right, my formulation could be misleading. I edited my post above
    So you have tested the same clip every OTHER TV have you?

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrb1972 View Post
    So you have tested the same clip every OTHER TV have you?
    I went to a TV shop this saturday, having in mind Juan's feedback "everything is ok compared to competitors".
    There was 4 Philips panel displayed (7xxx and 8xxx serie), boasting for easy 3D and... motion compensation.
    The marketing clip was well done to hide those problems. 2/3rd of the screen was slow motion background (computer generated), only 1/3rd a "real video". Not so demanding for CPU... For sure there was no stuttering because of that.
    Almost all logos were on top of dark gray zone (avoiding logos on top of moving background). For about 20 seconds, there was some full screen video (Sports).
    But yet, even if this was a perfect clip to hide those motion compensation problems, they could be well seen.
    It is hard to avoid high contrast (worst nightmare for the algorithm) and moving elements on a TV...

    Then I went to the Samsung Zone, the marketing clip was always with video clips full screen, logos all around, very fast scenes with vertical/horizontal lines... I could hardly see any problem. I could see a few things but this was not as distracting to me (and I can assure you I was trying to focus on problems).
    Two panels looked slightly not as good as others (one ES6710 and a crappy 75 inch panel).

    So, both brands were marketing the same motion compensation feature.
    One brand was/is failing.
    From my own view in shop, only Sharp Aquos is as bad. Producing exact same mess... most probably using same faulty processor.

    @mrb1972 : would you say that this particular function is within competitors (same price range) ?
    You've made extensive tests, so you must have now your own assessment.
    Which competitors do you know of ?
    Please don't take into account outdated products. I think it's useful to compare with what can be bought now at same price, and with same marketing specifications/flyers. This is not history about Led technology that is being discussed here, but what people can buy this year and whether this particular motion compensation is defective or not.

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