47pfl6877t

[mrb1972]

@mrb1972 : would you say that this particular function is within competitors (same price range) ?
You've made extensive tests, so you must have now your own assessment.
Which competitors do you know of ?

I haven't seen any other 2012 models, my experience came with 2010/2011 models so these are now outdated.

My own tests are basically, min setting is the best (least effected) but still shows some problems as well documented, med and max are unusable really.

My current testing is HDNM=off , clear lcd on and HDNM = min for sports, I will see how that goes this week.

With regards to those tests you did in store did you check the settings on each TV, the only way is to play the same clip on all the TV's and try different settings but what store will let anyone do that?

[Manuj]

My conclusion is that you also think this hdnm is somehow not that good.

I know, this was not the same clip.
As I wrote, Philips clip was much nicer to processing... but for sure, you don't have to believe me.
I could not change clip, or check settings, but again I think I can now tell when motion compensation is ON on a panel.
In that same shop there used to be all panels on same clip 3 weeks ago (TV wall). The only slight stuttering was on Philips TVs when processing could not cope with motion.

Anyway I'm done with testing. My setting is Game mode thanks to your discovery !
This is what decided me to keep that TV (that has good points, even if not current topic) otherwise 3D quality would not have decided me to stay with passive technology.

[aise]

is it possible to activate Game Mode when i use internal DVB-C tuner or play media from HDD? it is grayed out...

[mrb1972]

Interesting post just appeared on AV Forums

have now seen "Urban Acrobat" on Sony 2012 HX855 (Motionflow), Philips PFL6097 (Perfect Natural Motion) and LG LW980 (Trumotion). All of them produced artifacts in different situations. The legs and hands of the actor were blocky during the fastest spins and jumps. However, Philips PNM differed from LGs and Sony's as it had the smoothest background motion (=the urban scenery: walls of the houses) of them all. The notorious backflip jump was the low point of Philips PNM as parts of the body disappeared for some of the interpolated frames. This effect is visible in manuj youtube video. Overall, every TV produced different artifacts in different situations but Philips motion experience was the smoothest.

This sample video is very, if not the most challenging naturally created action movie (no special effects) and it was not clear if I preferred such amount of motion and action in 24p or with some interpolated frames with artifacts..

[Manuj]

Interesting post just appeared on AV Forums

Yes, interesting. thanks for sharing. I wish I could see as well.
To my feeling, the problems are on objects flickering/disappearing. I usually look at objects (allthemore in 3D), not at background, but it is fare to compare.
The flickering body (or legs, arms, ...) is what bothered me most (until I now switched this off).

I take this clip with me on usb stick all the time, I wish I can test it on another panel as well.
Also I have HDNM, PNM is said to be slightly better but it is not available on 6007.

I should break into a TV shop tonight !

Has this guy tested with other clips ?

@aise : Game mode is only with hdmi input as far as I now (I could just try with USB on embedded mediaplayer reaching NAS).

[Manuj]

This sample video is very, if not the most challenging naturally created action movie (no special effects) and it was not clear if I preferred such amount of motion and action in 24p or with some interpolated frames with artifacts..

It's funny how all the videos I posted are always considered extreme, or most extreme ever.
The philips logo (beginning of the clip) clearly shows that it had been used before to promote their panels. It was in the middle of other clips from other brands that I just found after a few minutes search on internet.
And sorry, I have no TV connection to look at some standard crappy sources ! (take that as a joke )

I wish I knew what Philips has been using in expositions like CES2012.

Just to correct : Urban acrobat is 48fps (not 24fps as stated by eikka) Edit :sorry, this is a bug of VLC for windows, framerate is effectively at 24 fps. Sorry for the confusion but this is a strange VLC bug.

I also posted that link hd_other_samsung_led_motion.m2ts (80MB) which was also with artifacts at 60fps (edit : 30fps, again due to VLC bug) which is weird. Also some flickering (flying guys) or artifacts.

[eikka]

It's funny how all the videos I posted are always considered extreme, or most extreme ever.
The philips logo (beginning of the clip) clearly shows that it had been used before to promote their panels. It was in the middle of other clips from other brands that I just found after a few minutes search on internet.
And sorry, I have no TV connection to look at some standard crappy sources ! (take that as a joke )

I wish I knew what Philips has been using in expositions like CES2012.

Just to correct : Urban acrobat is 48fps (not 24fps as stated by eikka)
I also posted that link hd_other_samsung_led_motion.m2ts (80MB) which was also with artifacts at 60fps which is weird. Also some flickering (flying guys) or artifacts.

Hi manuj, I don't know which player you are using but here's your clip's mediainfo:
General
ID : 1 (0x1)
Complete name : C:\hd_other_philips_urban_acrobat.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 165 MiB
Duration : 2mn 26s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 9 432 Kbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 35.5 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 2mn 26s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 8 270 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 24.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.166
Stream size : 147 MiB (89%)
Writing library : x264 core 114 r1924 08d04a4
...

I can assure you it is 24p. In addition to mediainfo, several software players show that it is 24p and you can see it is 24 by disabling the Natural Motion. If the clip really was 48p, it would look like Peter Jackson's HFR version of Hobbit.

And yes, I have done comprehensive testing with several PC software players and recently with Sony, LG TVs frame interpolation techniques. This particular clip really kills frame interpolation algorithms all around. I haven't seen any interpolation technique that comes clean with it. The closest is with Splash Pro's Motion2, which is quite impressive. You should test it yourself. The player has trial version available (remember to enable Motion2 by pressing 'o'). I think their technique is the best I have seen with the clip. It really is watchable.

The origins of this clip is an age-old Philips demo CD. There are many other clips on that disk where HDNM does just fine. Eg. "Sniper" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CUqeG8O5a0), where philips beats Sony and LG easily. Mind you that this clip does not have foreground object motion.

I also agree with you that philips has very specific problem in a specific motion type where the error gives fickering objects (high frequency vertical/diagonal edges on objects among complex horizontal motion, such as bee's feelers in front of horizontal background movement). This seems to affect channel logos as shown by the previous poster. I also hope Philips improves their algorithm with this particular motion type. I believe that would help reduce many issues that have been reported here so far.

Cheers,
Eikka

[Manuj]

Yes, I corrected my post after I saw your comment on AVforums (and before your post was autorized here). This was a VLC bug, wrong information displayed...
Sorry for the confusion.

I think your last paragraph is what bothers me most. High freq objects.
This is also what we look at when in 3D.
Since there are 2 images in 3D, the problems are multiplied by 2.

I would love to be able to test motion on different panels.
You should put Samsung in test if you have the opportunity. To what I felt recently in a shop, they do a good job with current panels.

I'm done with testing, I now try to enjoy the TV thanks to Game mode (that I feel clears all object problems also in 3D).
Hopefully Philips can make some improvement and not boast too much with marketing claims...

[eikka]

I think your last paragraph is what bothers me most. High freq objects.
This is also what we look at when in 3D.
Since there are 2 images in 3D, the problems are multiplied by 2.

I don't mean high frequency in time domain, but in spatial domain. High frequency elements in images means sharp edges. In this case, directed vertical high frequency edges mean basically sharp edges of objects that are in vertical orientation. When these types of object edges are in a horizontal motion field (eg. camera panning in a sports event) or the edges are having complex horizontal motion (jail bars) or moving over complex background, the motion estimation fails to calculate proper intermediate frames and object artifacts (flickering) appear.

But yeah, these artifacts are probably different for both stereoscopic frames so the effect is probably doubling the annoyance.

[Sejer84]

Hello again everybody.

After I returned my 47PFL6877T, I chose to buy the Panasonic WT50. Now i've had it for a couple of days, and i must say it is much better than the 6877T.

Now i dont see all of the Artifacts caused by the PNM by philips. Still a little in extreme scenes, but much more watchable. Especially around channel logo the tv shows a crisp clear picture.

Best regards,

[Manuj]

I don't mean high frequency in time domain, but in spatial domain. High frequency elements in images means sharp edges.

Yes, I know about frequency in image processing.

[cruxis]

Hi everyone,im already following this tread for a while now and i dont understand all the problems i had tv´s at home in all price ranges going from 2500 euro to 500 euro and everyone of them had problems but you have to make a choice in whats more important before you buy right???my most expensive one whas a flagship plasma from samsung on 24p he whas known for overprocesing the picture giving it a look that a 400 euro tv could beat... but that i knew...i bought him for perfect picture on normal digital tv 1080p panasonic same story you get beter detail and better viewing angle but i know that the wt50 is very bad in his colours production,people are also complaining about the menus being slow euhm?ever had a try with lg when there menus didnt look cheap like they do now????it whas lagging like hell so make a choice before you buy you want nice menus then you take the consequences it gives very normal..then the artifacts and judder sorry but in this price range perfectly normall same with lg 620,660 and 669 series...samsung has it less but there you get ghosting,light bleeding and a 3d that doesnt even come close to the 3d of philips 6007 while samsung even is active 3d and capable of giving 1080 p 3d...before complaining people look what you buy and for what you buy it instead of blaming the company for everything,,,,in my eyes is the 6007 serie the tv on top in his price range the colours perfect,no light bleeding or minimal, the 3d way in front of other brands, ambilight nice, slick design,4 3d glasses,

[sejmon]

.....

[majorusa]

I already posted this in the firmware thread. I came to peace with the TV. After JuAn post it is clear for me that the HDNM issue will not be solved. I learned to live with HDNM off and I am happy with the great picture this TV has in both 2D and 3D. I spent so many hours recording and posting different faults but I do not care anymore.

Now that the HDNM issue is off the table I hope that Philips will fix the other annoying bugs not HDNM related this TV has: new device discovery, tv restarting by itself, low responsiveness of the remote, channels not recording, channels broadcast black picture, etc.

If you are not happy with this TV you are left with two options now: return it to the store or learn to live with it. I chose the second one. My friends were amazed by the 3D colors and image quality and I really enjoy watching 3D content on this TV.

[Toengel]

Hi,

firmware 150.81 is available, please install and post feedback here: http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...7491#post47491

If you find bug, please descirbe in detail here: http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...00-Series-2012

Maybe it solves some of your issues...

Toengel@Alex