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  1. #391
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    I bought myself the 47pfl6007 a couple of months back and immediately noticed the hdnm judder/defect. It's exactly the sort of defect that many on here already have pointed out. At first I sort of stuck my head in the sand, not wanting to admit that I've bought a dud, but now I see others having the same issue with the set and I can't stay silent anylonger.

    I just can't believe that Philips have greenlighted this product with such an obvious defect. And it's not just something that occurs randomly or in specific films, it's all the time when HDNM is on, even at minimum. Didn't you test run this TV at all? I have a feeling that Philips DID know about this problem but kept schtum, and unfortunately I think it's a hardware problem and not software related, this meaning that Philips won't do anything about it because it will hit them too hard in their wallet. I hope I'm proved wrong.


    Furthermore, to the people saying it's only natural for a TV to show some judder in fast paced scenes; it's not only in fast paced scenes where judder occur, but can also be seen if a person's head is moving or his hands are moving.

    Also, my wife's brother bought a Philips pfl4047 (I think it was) and that TV didn't have the same defect as my set, so to say you have to accept that this thing happens, clearly not all sets have this defect so why should we who suffer from this crap put up with it?
    Last edited by Thfc1882; 12-21-2012 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by majorusa View Post
    I truly love when people are making allegations without bothering to verify them. For your viewing pleasure I will post a video of my 42PFL9603D - a four years old TV with the same scene that I posted to show the issues 6007 series have. Look closely at the bars on the right hand side of the picture. Then look at the other video. Both have HDNM on maximum.



    The picture on the 9603D is not perfect, It has some blur but this is not what we asked from Philips. We asked to fix the HDNM/PNM of the 6xx7 series in order to handle motion in the way my 4 years old TV was handling. Is this unreasonable?

    The other video is here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KilUA1A6ls4&feature=plcp
    Where can I find this video to test on my 9731?

  3. #393
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    Question

    Hey,

    I'm looking at buying a 47PFL6057T but reading this thread has made me a bit uncertain. Can anyone say if the 6057 model is/may be affected by the issues discussed here?

    Thanks.

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    I have started a review thread on the 42" models, mainly the 42PFL6007 and 42PFL6067 models.

    http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...-quot-but-quot

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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post
    Hey,

    I'm looking at buying a 47PFL6057T but reading this thread has made me a bit uncertain. Can anyone say if the 6057 model is/may be affected by the issues discussed here?

    Thanks.


    Probably, looks like the whole 6XXX series is suffering from this defect.

    Furthermore, adding to the HDNM problem discussed here, today I discovered that the whole hdnm function is gone i.e. I can't even turn on the hdnm function. The menu option is still there but when I try to switch it on nothing happens to the picture. It's like the whole thing has stopped working. Anyone else suffering from the same problem?

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thfc1882 View Post
    Probably, looks like the whole 6XXX series is suffering from this defect.
    This is not a defect. Philips is doing better than the competition with respect to motion compensation. Their algorithm is far better than the others. With Samsung and Sony TVs, the motion often becomes jerky when the picture becomes too complex. This does not happen with Philips. There are artefacts but I think these very minor artefacts are better than stuttery/jerky motion with no artefact.

    You know what, you just go in a shop. There, you watch the same image displayed on multiple TVs. Jerky motion will occasionally affect Sony, Samsung or Panasonic TV sets. Not with Philips TVs. Their natural motion algorithm is more robust.
    Last edited by martytv; 01-02-2013 at 08:25 PM.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post
    Hey,

    I'm looking at buying a 47PFL6057T but reading this thread has made me a bit uncertain. Can anyone say if the 6057 model is/may be affected by the issues discussed here?

    Thanks.
    It is! But it is not an issue, this is by design. This is what you want to happen, actually. Just go to a shop and see how Samsung models are doing for instance - motion getting jerky from times to times (read: too often).

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    Quote Originally Posted by martytv View Post
    This is not a defect. Philips is doing better than the competition with respect to motion compensation. Their algorithm is far better than the others. With Samsung and Sony TVs, the motion often becomes jerky when the picture becomes too complex. This does not happen with Philips. There are artefacts but I think these very minor artefacts are better than stuttery/jerky motion with no artefact.

    You know what, you just go in a shop. There, you watch the same image displayed on multiple TVs. Jerky motion will occasionally affect Sony, Samsung or Panasonic TV sets. Not with Philips TVs. Their natural motion algorithm is more robust.
    Well, this is your view, not mine from my own watch in shops.
    I think Samsung is performing better on recent models (comparable to 6xx7), don't know about Sony that seems not so well distributed where I live.
    I think we should advise buyers to go/watch/test and make their own opinion. Or devide to switch off that defective motion compensation (or artifacts generator, name it like you want)
    HDNM is not all functions of the TV to be compared (only this thread is focused on that).

    I would advise to wait for CES 2013, just a few days away, and not buy right now.
    Not only will you know what's coming, but also when. As new products start to ship, there will be price drop of current models. We will also guess what Philips is focussing on for the next generation (and thus what they may stop working at).

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuj View Post
    Well, this is your view, not mine from my own watch in shops.
    I think Samsung is performing better on recent models (comparable to 6xx7), don't know about Sony that seems not so well distributed where I live.
    I watched a Samsung ES7000 and a Philips 6007 side by side for a long, long time. I was myself interested with the ES7000, more expensive. The Samsung has jerky motion with some scenes, the Philips copes pretty well. Samsung is Samsung and is a good brand, but this does not change the fact the motion is more jerky. There are some artefacts with Philips, but I can live with it. I can't live with jerky motion. That just defies the purpose of motion compensation.

  10. #400
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    You may have seen jerkiness that you can't stand yourself on Samsung.
    I can see some jerkiness all the time when HDNM is set. All panning is going bad, so I can't live with it and decided to just switch off that function (defective to my standpoint).
    I just think we should advise people to make their own personal mind instead of being so affirmative. This is just why I reacted to your post...

    Moreover you stated this is Design... this was a good one ! Standstill logos are bleeding "by design"... because this makes sense not to detect still pixels ? and decide that they should be moving... Really I don't get that one. I'm just taking logos as an obvious still pixel area, but in 3D films, there are many small objects in front of a moving background, and I personnaly can't live with flickering/artifacts on those. So everyone's different.

    Again people should make their own mind, and know what they buy and have to look at upfront. If they are willing to have passive 3D, then 6xx7 is their best choice. But if they are looking at smartTV, HDNM/PNM, then they just have to test.
    People should also find/read the post from Eikka who made a comparative testing over several brands. Again it was his own viewing experience. It could be on avforums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philips View Post
    Dear customers,

    Thank you all for your extensive feedback. It is really appreciated. We of course regret that this topic has led to so many questions and discussions and herewith would like to give our view.

    First of all, you need to know that picture quality, or how one perceives it, has many variables including source material (compression factor, bit rate), source device, source input, TV settings, software version, watching distance, etc.

    ...

    We really want to offer the customer the most optimal viewing experiences on their Philips flat TV’s, and in that extend we have noted down the specific scenes where some of you are complaining about and we are investigating whether we can even further improve on these. If this would be possible, we will bring this to all customers as a software update, further improving the performance beyond what we already offer per today.

    Our final conclusion is that our 2012 models fully behave as specified, and are at least on par with (and in some cases better than) competition on Picture Quality.


    Kind regards,
    JuAn
    According to the philips answer, it will be very hard to explain if one day a correction is released (on future series with same "shipset or hardware")...

    Is there only one blue ray or HD source which works perfectly with all full Pixel Precise HD set to ON (With action scenes of course)

    I think that HDNM issue is too much noticeable, philips has to take this into consideration.

    I am very very disappointed with my purchase at € 1,200 and I and I will not recommend philips to my friends or familly...

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philips - Benedickte View Post
    Hi Gabriel.

    Have you updated to the latest sw (133.3) yet? You can find this at the support page for your TV.

    Regards,
    Benedickte
    The 32PFL6087h/12 with the latest firmware has the same bug. Philips / TP Vision really should take this problem seriously. It is a bug and not a feature. You can see it when for example somebody shakes his hand in the air. The hand then gets double edges, comparable with watching a 3D film without the glasses. Regardless of the HD Natural Motion setting, a object should only be visible on that part of screen where the object actually is, and not also where it was half a second ago.

  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuj View Post
    You may have seen jerkiness that you can't stand yourself on Samsung.
    I can see some jerkiness all the time when HDNM is set.
    Originally you complained about artefacts. I can totally understand you see artefacts around moving objects - there are some artefacts, which most of the time are minor artefacts, nobody is going to argue that (eg. that there are artefacts, minor is something more subjective)

    What you seem to say now is that there is some judder in the motion "all the time" with HDNM. Sorry, but this is plainly wrong. In my point of view, your credibility is decreasing quickly now that you say that.

    There is much less judder with Philips than with other brands. And this is nothing subjective. There are tests being made by Philips and other brands. Research papers. Review committees. And so on.

    Their algorithm is very robust compared to other brands. Philips has a patent on motion compensation, their Natural Motion goes back as far as 2000 and CRT TVs. People wanting to buy a TV and feeling concerned with motion compensation will take a close look at the picture when going in a shop. They can compare a 6007 model with a Sony HX950 or a Samsung ES8000, much more expensive. In almost all circumstances, and I really, really mean it, the Philips will provide no judder. Quite often, Samsung and Sony will have some judder. And yes, I am saying quite often, because this is the case. For regular TV watching, like news or documentaries I want a bullet-proof motion compensation, which Philips gives me. For movie watching, I may or may not be turned off.
    It is true there are artefacts, and that the absence of judder in complex scenes produces side effects eg. artefacts (think about it two seconds, the TV has to built intermediate pictures, it cannot fully guess what the real picture would be), and maybe, maybe, there are slightly more artefacts in the general case than with some other brands. But stop with this wrong argument that there is judder all the time. This is just wrong. Forum readers will judge by themselves anyway when in the shops.

    Bottom line is that Philips HDNM/PNM effectively removes almost any kind of judder, to the price of some artefacts around moving objects. If you like smooth motion, you will like Philips.

    Other brands tend to not be able to prevent judder to some extent, but try to keep the image artefact-free.
    Last edited by martytv; 01-05-2013 at 12:22 PM.

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  15. #404
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    You're right, there is not that much jerkiness, I should not have said that (but there can be from time to time as related in some posts). I was thinking about moving scenes when all vertical lines collapse.

    I don't care about all artifacts, I have written that several times. Except in 3D where they seem to happen more fequently (when not in game mode).
    I am concerned about collapsing scenes (often seen on verticals) when there is some movement.

    And Nsv also reported exactly what I don't like about moving arms/legs/hands in his post just before.
    "Regardless of the HD Natural Motion setting, a object should only be visible on that part of screen where the object actually is, and not also where it was half a second ago."
    The algorithm is doing much worse things that only wrongly calculating intermediate images.

    From Eikka tests, it looks like Philips was not that bad in brand comparison (there was not Samsung to my recall). His tests were very interesting and detailed, he even used an offline motion compensation algorithm on some scenes for comparison.
    I'm not discussing brand comparison, but more the way Philips is telling customers that motion compensation is perfect, and the way yome people say it is "by design". This is why people should test, and this may lower the number of frustrated people and returned TV. It looks like not many people see the problems, in my case, I only watch movies or animations (I don't have a TV connection).

    Then I don't care about my credibility, if I could clear all that mess in the forum (achievements stuff on the left), I would rightfully. I told mistakes several times and I will again for sure.

    Please provide links to "Research papers. Review committees. And so on" about motion compensation you are talking about. This will be more scientific than the way you claim things.
    I always tried to test and post examples so that it keeps things moving based on facts that can be discussed. I don't like how you just shout "your" truth, even if I sincerely respect your opinion. You just sometimes sound like a preacher, don't you think ?
    I'm just glad you now say people have to judge by themselves.

    And again, I'm now glad to have this TV at home as I can live with HDNM off.
    I wish Philips would correct that dynamic backlight flickering very soon.

  16. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuj View Post
    Please provide links to "Research papers. Review committees. And so on" about motion compensation you are talking about. This will be more scientific than the way you claim things.
    I always tried to test and post examples so that it keeps things moving based on facts that can be discussed. I don't like how you just shout "your" truth, even if I sincerely respect your opinion. You just sometimes sound like a preacher, don't you think ?
    Fair enough. Here is a link for you:

    http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login...umber%3D494417

    This research paper probably is one of the earliest dealing with production-class algorithm for real-time motion compensation. The author:

    http://www.es.ele.tue.nl/~dehaan/

    Now give a go to Google Scholar:

    http://scholar.google.fr/scholar?hl=...lips&btnG=&lr=

    Look at the first article, then click "Cited". You will find many more articles, not all being linked to motion compensation, but many of them are. Sort by date if you wish, there will be plenty of papers from many corporations (Philips, or Samsung included), and universities.

    Now, to really make up our mind, you and me would have to actually read the articles. They do contain test procedures. They are submitted anonymously and reviewed by a review committee. I just wanted to point out that Philips and Haan are no dummies and they probably know what they're doing since they are pretty much at the origin of the technology (not sure 100%, only a thorough analysis of the state of the art would tell us - this is not my field).

    Totally agree with you on the backlight flickering, it sucks. The very faint vertical banding too, IMHO.

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