47pfl6877t

[Manuj]

Is there one paper (available for reading) that states that Philips is best ? (as you previously wrote).
It would make much sense to see how the test processs was done, and how brands get classified.

As for everything now on earth, scientific papers exist. And I'm sure there are hundreds of good engineers at Philips. But this (now) Sigma Designs Soc just sucks ! I am convinced it just can't cope with high bandwidth of data. Just like SmarTV app can't display Youtube in HD..., I have no doubt this is do-able.
We'll most probably know in a few months (next product generation on the market) if this motion compensation can be improved.

[martytv]

Two different ways to know if it really is the best algorithm

1) Scientifically: we probably both have no time to read the various papers. I don't know which conference is best in image technology for consumer products, which usually helps. You have to buy the papers too, they are not free.

2) Subjectively: as consumers, we are free to judge the technology ourselves. You say there is no judder now, which I agree with, and there are many artefacts. I also agree with this. The technology does what it is supposed to do: it compensates the motion, hence the name Natural Motion. It doesn't say the interpolation won't be artefact-free. The algorithm has to frickin' invent intermediate pictures, and for 24p material, this is pretty complex. Don't expect the image to be 100% perfect. You are free to turn off Natural Motion. Quite a few people do for 24p material.

Haan's still working on papers, I see one specifically on motion compensation for plasma displays from 2012, so you can expect things to move in 2013 and beyond. I believe something like 90% of TVs are projected to be edge led TVs in 2013 so we may have firmware updates and improvements (I hope so).

Regarding the chip that can't handle large bandwidth data, you may well be right. But I noticed something interesting: in a TV advert with a very large moving scene and scrolling text at the bottom, the algorithm neglects to do MC for the scrolling text, and does it correctly for the most part of the picture. So it was clever enough to concentrate on what matters most.

Another thing which sucks is the MyRemote application for iOS. I just don't manage to make it work.

[Jamesbalson]

Hi all. Living in the Czech Republic. Bought this TV 2 days ago after hearing from the salesman how good it was. I we to there to buy an LG model after seeing it perform at a friends house. I have had 2 Samsung lcds over the last 8 years and have been more than happy. From what I could see you could get an extra 7" with philips and LG in comparison to the same spec from Samsung. Without making any puns those 7" have made a big difference, in a negative way.

I am extremely disappointed with the problems that this Philips tv has. Sometimes I get motion sickness from the way the screen judder and looking at football is almost impossible.

The menus are painfully slow as well. But that's a problem that LG have too, and isn't a major reason for complaint. The other issues though are without a doubt unacceptable.

I am returning this TV at the end of this week and will probably opt for a slightly more expensive Samsung model

After reading this forum I have sincerely lost faith in Philips and challenge them to change my mind in some way. I have always liked the company and the image and am kind of shocked that this TV range is still I sale with such critical issues.

[Jamesbalson]

That was supposed to say still ON sale. Even my iPhone has flaws, but not as many as this TV. Even my wife has started to notice the issues. Got rid of the soap opera effect, but now we have these other imaging problems.

[martytv]

Quite a few people do for 24p material.

To be completely precise, Natural Motion is lovely for 24p material for:

- cartoons. Tried it with Peter Pan, Cenderella. Awesome.
- 3D-rendered animation (eg. Disney, DreamWorks, Pixar and so on)
- 3D material

We take most benefit from it with 3D-rendered animation released on 3D Blu Rays, eg. 3D graphics viewable in 3D. The Blu Rays are in 24 images per second and there is lots of judder in the original movie (35mm is 24 images per second as everybody knows). That's where their Natural Motion stands out.

I can safely watch these movies with my daughter, given that:

- no headache risk thanks to passive 3D
- no headache risk either since motion compensation removes the judder inherently present in Blu Ray/24p material that is disturbing to some people when watched on a big screen. You may get headaches when you're too close to the screen and objects are moving too fast - that can happen in a cinema room for instance. Well, natural motion reduces this risk quite importantly.

[Manuj]

@Jamesbalson : I can understand your disappointment regarding these issues, but you're a bit hard in your final judgment. The overall system is not that bad for Philips (no banding, still image quality, passive 3D, to take just a few examples).

Also make sure you set Natural Motion to Minimum (and not higher), it looks like most people prefer this setting and feel it is the best compromise. But you'll still get some bleeding logos such as these filmed by tvkc...
I would advise to keep clear LCD On as well.

When Natural Motion get set to OFF, there's even fewer problems, but for sure you are at 24fps and get the usual judder.
Personaly I even set Game mode because 3D was still not good (switching to Game mode certainly stops other motion processing problems). In 3D I'm still very distracted with problems with verticals and other artifacts in fast motion scenes.

It has been reported on this thread, as well as in other forum, that all kind of sources are affected. What's also clear is that it is very very very dependant to viewers to get distracted or not. There's a full range from "I see no problem" to "I return this TV".

Eikka (on avforums.com) found out that Philips may have slightly more problems with verticals, but overall motion compensation is comparable to other brands (he made side-by-side comparison with a Sony and an LG panel) and even smoother sometimes (to my recall for backgrounds). He also used an external/offline calculation (with some PC high-end motion algorithm), and he said it's much better (with thus high calculation power...) but it can never be perfect (inherently to calculate new images).

But again, we don't all see same output and get distracted differently. So you'll have to make your mind by yourself, but look at the whole system would be my 2-cent recommendation.

[martytv]

(no banding, still image quality, passive 3D, to take just a few examples).

Apart from the very faint darker vertical band in the middle of the screen I am really satisfied with the TV. You guys have no banding at all? Seems like it randomly affects all edge lit TVs of all brands.

[Manuj]

Apart from the very faint darker vertical band in the middle of the screen I am really satisfied with the TV. You guys have no banding at all? Seems like it randomly affects all edge lit TVs of all brands.

I've seen your question in another thread about this.
No, I don't have banding personally and have not heard much complaints at all for Philips.

[martytv]

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
I've searched the forum a bit and it seems at least some people are affected.

Dirty Screen Effect
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...-Screen-Effect

Dark lines/smudges on screen 46PFL7605H/12
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...-46PFL7605H-12

42pfl6007 h12 Dirty Screen Effect
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...fl6007-h12-dse

[Manuj]

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
I've searched the forum a bit and it seems at least some people are affected.

Dirty Screen Effect
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...-Screen-Effect

Dark lines/smudges on screen 46PFL7605H/12
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...-46PFL7605H-12

42pfl6007 h12 Dirty Screen Effect
http://www.supportforum.philips.com/...fl6007-h12-dse

Please don't mix threads/subjects too much or it gets complicated for future readers.

However I read the links and you're right but this seemed to concern very few people. However there's no real sample video, picture, and real discussion that went on.
The second link is just for an older model, and it looks like this TV set has now been repaired (hardware defect).

And sometimes people mix words (like me recently!). Vertical banding was previously used for this motion compensation problem (that has a hard time with verticals). I don't recall seing a picture of a TV with vertical banding on this forum.
But you can again open a thread about that, or wait a little for feedback in firmware thread where you posted your question to all people.

[martytv]

I agree one thread I cited is about an older model, but banding analysis is welcome in this review thread. At least as welcome as the posts on HDNM.

Attached:

- one picture of my TV with a uniform gray background. You can see the banding and the areas in the panel that have a darker shade.

- the same picture, Photoshop'ed with extremely enhanced contrast. This reveals all the details. It obviously won't be seen this "wrong" by the human eye, this is an enhancement.

[Manuj]

I agree one thread I cited is about an older model, but banding analysis is welcome in this review thread. At least as welcome as the posts on HDNM.

My view is that you are spoiling this thread with a new topic because you had no response. I let you discuss that without me.

[martytv]

My view is that you are spoiling this thread with a new topic because you had no response. I let you discuss that without me.

Your remarks are soo childish Please carry on like this to entertain us.

[Philips - Benedickte]

Your remarks are soo childish Please carry on like this to entertain us.

Hi Martytv

Please keep the DSE subject out of this thread as that is a totally different from the thrad subject. Keep this in a seperate thread.

Best regards,
Benedickte

[sejmon]

hi Philips - Benedickte

sorry for off topic, but it seems so I only got the answer.
five days ago I sent to Philips - Thomas PM and the message still not answered.

Is really hard to answer on PM or on topics in this forum??

even if it was not present on this forum, as a moderator he can set any "redirection" for pm, or something similar.